What is the physiology behind pyramiding?

FLINTUS

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Ignoring diet, space etc. and just looking at meteorology.
While we can't follow the weather-wild fires, short low pressure systems etc. anything contributing to the environment over a short space of time- we can follow the climate, and as a result the seasons. We can at least control temps and humidity for different seasons-divide the year into 4 to make it more simple- with relative ease. We can understand the standard, average weather that you would get in the wild by looking at climatic nature of an area.
 

OCTortoiseGuy

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FLINTUS said:
Ignoring diet, space etc. and just looking at meteorology.
While we can't follow the weather-wild fires, short low pressure systems etc. anything contributing to the environment over a short space of time- we can follow the climate, and as a result the seasons. We can at least control temps and humidity for different seasons-divide the year into 4 to make it more simple- with relative ease. We can understand the standard, average weather that you would get in the wild by looking at climatic nature of an area.

This is a very interesting topic. In the reef aquarium hobby they have controllers that will mimic the weather of the area your reef fish and corals come from. Your light will come on and off at the same day and night cycles, will mimic thunderstorms when they happen, adjust the temperature of the water as it goes up and down in the wild and even accelerate the motion of the water in your tank. Using the controller with Led lights, heaters and pumps make it very easy to mimic the weather from the natural habitat of your animals.

What if there was a controller made for the reptile hobby that could control Humidity, light, temperature mimic thunder storms?
 

Testudoresearch

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OCTortoiseGuy said:
What if there was a controller made for the reptile hobby that could control Humidity, light, temperature mimic thunder storms?

You know, I am sure it could be done. I think you'd need more than just a controller, however. From working with all kinds of scale set-ups, generally speaking, the larger the installation the easier it gets. Very small setups are very difficult, as you go up in size, it definitely gets easier. Tropical butterfly houses are a good example of where this kind of approach has already been used. Getting a decent environment (for a tortoise) in a fish-tank is practically impossible - but in a very large greenhouse or plastic tunnel system, it is far easier to achieve. Of course, the costs of doing so, and the sheer space required, are prohibitive for most keepers.
 

FLINTUS

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OCTortoiseGuy said:
FLINTUS said:
Ignoring diet, space etc. and just looking at meteorology.
While we can't follow the weather-wild fires, short low pressure systems etc. anything contributing to the environment over a short space of time- we can follow the climate, and as a result the seasons. We can at least control temps and humidity for different seasons-divide the year into 4 to make it more simple- with relative ease. We can understand the standard, average weather that you would get in the wild by looking at climatic nature of an area.

This is a very interesting topic. In the reef aquarium hobby they have controllers that will mimic the weather of the area your reef fish and corals come from. Your light will come on and off at the same day and night cycles, will mimic thunderstorms when they happen, adjust the temperature of the water as it goes up and down in the wild and even accelerate the motion of the water in your tank. Using the controller with Led lights, heaters and pumps make it very easy to mimic the weather from the natural habitat of your animals.

What if there was a controller made for the reptile hobby that could control Humidity, light, temperature mimic thunder storms?
Ah now that's a bit different. I was saying things like reducing the temps for a new season, and making it more humid for the rainy season.
Arcadia-reptile lighting company- have been working on some plans for the above-not up to date with weather but from the average for the years-you set the date and the month and time etc. when starting. Not any thunderstorm stuff, but stuff like late afternoon rainfall due to cumulonimbus clouds, changes in humidity using misters, changes in temps using heaters, overcast days. They reckon to do it as one, combined piece it would cost around £600($900).
 

Testudoresearch

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Yvonne G said:
I don't feed this tortoise. He has to make do with whatever he finds growing in his pen. During the summer, that would be plenty of bermuda grass and weeds. In the winter, the grass is dormant and brown, and if there is no rain, no weeds. So for about five months out of the year, my 110lb sulcata subsists on brown grass.

I've had him now for about 20 years. He looks and acts perfectly healthy. Only time will tell if this on-again, off-again diet has done him any long run harm.

I think you have done the opposite of harm. The "harm" tends to be done by those who "kill with kindness". You are providing a much closer cycle to that which these tortoises are 'designed for' than average keepers. My guess is also that this is now one healthy tortoises. You have got it right.

This may be of some interest. These are some photos taken over several months in our own Testudo pens... we follow the same general approach. I don't even see some of them for weeks, or months on end...

First emergence from hibernation, 27 Feb 2012:

emerging_27Feb_2012.jpg


Another up very next day:

emerging_28Feb_2012.jpg


Hibernation burrow (usually around 10cm/4" deep)

Hibernation_burrow.jpg


Vegetation in pen area, February

Pens_springvegetation.jpg


More vegetation in the pens

Testudopen_early_spring.jpg


Testudopen_early_spring_2.jpg


Mating! 23 March

mating_23march.jpg


Same pens... vegetation by August (no tortoises, all estivating, ground surface temperatures very high, no rain since May)

vegetation_pen_august.jpg


vegetation_pen_august-2.jpg


Short emergence following mid-August overnight thunderstorm. Then back down again by 11.00 am the same morning. Tortoises observed drinking and passing urates. Also munching on dry vegetation.

vegetation_pen_august-3.jpg


First rain of early September... first hatchings begin to emerge 2nd week of the month (natural incubation, in the ground). This one is a 2nd generation Libyan.

2ndgeneration_cyranaica_sept.jpg


That is a very typical year here in terms of activity and vegetation cycle. They are pretty much left alone... and take care of themselves.

Obviously, this is not possible in all climates.
 

Tom

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Testudoresearch said:
I think you have done the opposite of harm. The "harm" tends to be done by those who "kill with kindness".

Oh yes. My dozens of tortoises are all dying because I'm smothering them with all my "kindness" by letting them have a drink of water and feeding them some weeds and grass every day...



Testudoresearch said:
This may be of some interest. These are some photos taken over several months in our own Testudo pens... we follow the same general approach. I don't even see some of them for weeks, or months on end...

"Neglect" is not a good husbandry strategy in my opinion.
 

nearpass

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Tom said:
Oh yes. My dozens of tortoises are all dying because I'm smothering them with all my "kindness" by letting them have a drink of water and feeding them some weeds and grass every day...

"Neglect" is not a good husbandry strategy in my opinion.

Tom, with all due respect, sarcasm really isn't necessary; would you please read and try to understand what people here are trying to say. NO ONE here is talking about neglect.
 

lilacdragon

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Those pictures paint a thousand words.

Nearpass wrote:
Very few of us, I believe, have a real comprehension of the nature of the environments many tortoises come from, and the reasons for their adaptations. Poor tortoise, we think, surely I can provide much better for him...optimal conditions and diet, as it were, based on what WE think that should be. How can hibernation, and estivation, and dried up weeds be the best, when we can do so much more for them? Wouldn't it be fine if we give them that optimal life, if we can meet all their needs, or better yet, provide then with even better?

This is so true! I still feel absurdly guilty about not giving my chuckwallas food, when they are still coming out to bask for a few hours, as they often do, during their mid-winter fast...They look at me and I wonder if I'm being cruel.. yet I know that really, offering them food now would be the cruel thing to do.

It seems to me, from reading this thread and another rather similar one, that one of the major reasons that pyramiding doesn't often occur in the wild - in Mediterranean tortoises, at least - might be because in the microhabitat their bodies are best equipped for, their average growth rate is very slow. They don't grow when conditions aren't optimal, am I right?

In spring, when food is in good supply, they can grow fast; but at that time - and only at that time - the solar radiation is suitable for full morning basking; its warmth and short-wavelength infrared stimulates healthy bone and scute growth, its UVB ensures vitamin D3 levels are optimal too... and the humidity levels are possibly higher under green vegetation and maybe dawn dews also moisten the scutes occasionally, so contributing to softer keratin and healthy shell growth.
But as soon as things are less optimal, either because it's too hot, or too dry, or winter is approaching... the very first thing that happens, in the wild, is that the food supply dries up or dies off. So they stop eating, and stop growing.
Could this be protecting them from deformity?

Frances
 

nearpass

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lilacdragon said:
Those pictures paint a thousand words.

Nearpass wrote:
Very few of us, I believe, have a real comprehension of the nature of the environments many tortoises come from, and the reasons for their adaptations. Poor tortoise, we think, surely I can provide much better for him...optimal conditions and diet, as it were, based on what WE think that should be. How can hibernation, and estivation, and dried up weeds be the best, when we can do so much more for them? Wouldn't it be fine if we give them that optimal life, if we can meet all their needs, or better yet, provide then with even better?

This is so true! I still feel absurdly guilty about not giving my chuckwallas food, when they are still coming out to bask for a few hours, as they often do, during their mid-winter fast...They look at me and I wonder if I'm being cruel.. yet I know that really, offering them food now would be the cruel thing to do.

It seems to me, from reading this thread and another rather similar one, that one of the major reasons that pyramiding doesn't often occur in the wild - in Mediterranean tortoises, at least - might be because in the microhabitat their bodies are best equipped for, their average growth rate is very slow. They don't grow when conditions aren't optimal, am I right?

In spring, when food is in good supply, they can grow fast; but at that time - and only at that time - the solar radiation is suitable for full morning basking; its warmth and short-wavelength infrared stimulates healthy bone and scute growth, its UVB ensures vitamin D3 levels are optimal too... and the humidity levels are possibly higher under green vegetation and maybe dawn dews also moisten the scutes occasionally, so contributing to softer keratin and healthy shell growth.
But as soon as things are less optimal, either because it's too hot, or too dry, or winter is approaching... the very first thing that happens, in the wild, is that the food supply dries up or dies off. So they stop eating, and stop growing.
Could this be protecting them from deformity?

Frances

From my perspective that sounds very right :) I think that testudo hatchlings, too, hatching in late summer, probably do limited immediate eating and growing, before beginning brumation.
 

Testudoresearch

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One of the things that I have not personally been involved in (but a friend of mine here, Marcos, has) is in identifying the species of plants consumed by tortoises. It really encompasses a remarkably wide range, depending on habitat, from around 70 to 120+ different species throughout the season. In some cases leaves are consumed, in other cases flowers, seed heads and stalks. All parts of some plants are eaten, only specific parts of others. The soil the plants grow in is INCREDIBLY high in natural calcium. Also, UVB levels are ideal - consequently no supplementation or artificial lighting is required. This is quite different from some localities where I kept tortoises. There, supplementation was essential. It was also a struggle to supply even a small proportion of the variety of plants eaten by tortoises within the natural habitat. You can see the range of plants that grow in these pens in Spring (Feb to early May is when fresh vegetation cover peaks).

pen_vegetation_1.jpg


vegetation_pens.jpg


vegetation_pens-2.jpg


vegetation_pens-3.jpg


vegetation_pens-4.jpg


We have around 10,000 square meters which is fully fenced and secured against predators, permitting the tortoises a near-natural life cycle.

This is one particularly important plant to tortoises in this area, and in parts of North Africa. Esparto grass (Macrochloa tenacissima). This is used as a hide and popular overnight scrape.

esparto-2.jpg


You will also find tortoises using dead, dry vegetation in a similar manner.

microclimate_scrape.jpg


Analysis of fecal pellets is a useful tool. You can see here just how incredibly fibrous it really is....compare with output from most captive 'pet' examples. There is an enormous difference.

pellets.jpg


pellets_2.jpg


One very interesting fact is that very, very little (if any) weight loss occurs during either brumation or estivation. You might expect tortoises to be dehydrated after, say, three months underground with surface temperatures just a few inches above them like this...

51c.jpg


51.2 Celsius or 124.16F.

But... they are not in the least. They remain very well hydrated and losses are near imperceptible. A testament to their excellent 'design' and total suitability to be right 'at home' in this kind of environment.

Over-feeding with highly digestible foods that lack long fibers on the kind of scale seen above are major problem areas when using artificial diets. Dietary fiber content achieved in these pens is 35-40%. Many captive diets are 12% or less, and even the best of them rarely exceeds 20%. Even then, fiber length is much shorter (due to production methods). More energy is extracted from these chopped, short fibers, prompting more rapid growth... with the consequent problems that brings. Energy release from very long fibers is much slower and more restricted. Another example of "more is not always better".
 

mikeh

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Re: RE: What is the physiology behind pyramiding?

Tom said:
Testudoresearch said:
I think you have done the opposite of harm. The "harm" tends to be done by those who "kill with kindness".

Oh yes. My dozens of tortoises are all dying because I'm smothering them with all my "kindness" by letting them have a drink of water and feeding them some weeds and grass every day...



Testudoresearch said:
This may be of some interest. These are some photos taken over several months in our own Testudo pens... we follow the same general approach. I don't even see some of them for weeks, or months on end...

"Neglect" is not a good husbandry strategy in my opinion.

This natures "neglect" produces animals that are perfect.
Our "kindness" struggles to produce animals rival those in nature.

One can say but my animals are all robust, smooth, eating machines, growing faster, bigger, etc, but weather the "kindness" truly rivals natures "neglect" could be truly only considered after some adequate time tortoise has lived under these "kind" conditions, 50-60-70-80 years and is still thriving. There may be some zoos that have few animals that long, but were they raised kindly from hatchlings? If so, that perhaps may prove the case.
Tortoise making it to lets say 20years is equal to human making it to 20 years, not showing for much.
 

nearpass

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Testudoresearch said:
Over-feeding with highly digestible foods that lack long fibers on the kind of scale seen above are major problem areas when using artificial diets. Dietary fiber content achieved in these pens is 35-40%. Many captive diets are 12% or less, and even the best of them rarely exceeds 20%. Even then, fiber length is much shorter (due to production methods). More energy is extracted from these chopped, short fibers, prompting more rapid growth... with the consequent problems that brings. Energy release from very long fibers is much slower and more restricted. Another example of "more is not always better".

This is a problem here in the US. I contacted Agrops in Germany about importing Pre Alpin or their other diets to the US. We had a nice email exchange several years ago, and they were kind enough to send me samples. They indicated they were, at that time, looking for an importer, but since the US market is so limited, they doubted it could be done, and as far as I can tell, it has not happened. Sooooo...any suggestions for us here?
 

Testudoresearch

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lilacdragon said:
It seems to me, from reading this thread and another rather similar one, that one of the major reasons that pyramiding doesn't often occur in the wild - in Mediterranean tortoises, at least - might be because in the microhabitat their bodies are best equipped for, their average growth rate is very slow. They don't grow when conditions aren't optimal, am I right?

Certainly growth is very restricted when food intake is minimal or non-existent (though it does not necessarily cease completely). I have encountered tortoises that have emerged from hibernation or estivation with some new growth evident. Growth is also certainly slow, however, outside of peak foraging periods (of which here, there are two). I have some data for T. horsfieldii in my files, and if I recall correctly, there was only a total of 12 weeks activity out of 52 with those in the wild... and foraging periods even then were measured in minutes (not hours) per day. They spend vastly more time doing 'nothing' than doing 'something'! I could mention some people who also match the same description! :D

lilacdragon said:
In spring, when food is in good supply, they can grow fast; but at that time - and only at that time - the solar radiation is suitable for full morning basking; its warmth and short-wavelength infrared stimulates healthy bone and scute growth, its UVB ensures vitamin D3 levels are optimal too... and the humidity levels are possibly higher under green vegetation and maybe dawn dews also moisten the scutes occasionally, so contributing to softer keratin and healthy shell growth.
But as soon as things are less optimal, either because it's too hot, or too dry, or winter is approaching... the very first thing that happens, in the wild, is that the food supply dries up or dies off. So they stop eating, and stop growing.
Could this be protecting them from deformity?

I am personally sure that it is a very big part of it. I would say that it is not just a question of food availability as such, but from my observations, temperature and water availability play a huge role in regulating behaviour - initiating and terminating estivation especially. More so, I feel, than mere food availability. We have been running some trials on that..... with some very interesting results.

Certainly it is the case that wild feeding, growth and activity is incredibly cyclic, in a stop-start kind of way, whereas most pets are expected to "perform" on a daily basis, possibly even for 12 months out of 12.

Those tend to be the very animals we see all kinds of health problems in.....the tortoises we have been monitoring here for just over four years now have had zero health problems and zero mortality. Other keepers and researchers I am in contact with who are using similar approaches report the same thing.


nearpass said:
This is a problem here in the US. I contacted Agrops in Germany about importing Pre Alpin or their other diets to the US. We had a nice email exchange several years ago, and they were kind enough to send me samples. They indicated they were, at that time, looking for an importer, but since the US market is so limited, they doubted it could be done, and as far as I can tell, it has not happened. Sooooo...any suggestions for us here?

It is a problem. It is quite bulky stuff, so international shipping is disproportionally expensive. It is quite a different product from anything Zoomed/Mazuri currently make.... and in my opinion, considerably superior on many levels. I am actually quite surprised that no-one has developed anything similar in the US. There must be a market... I know Susan Donoghue DVM had something going (Walkabout Farms) but that was years ago and I believe the business was sold, then ceased.

I really would have thought there is an opening there, for someone determined to do it right.
 

edwardbo

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It may have been bought and ceased to eliminate the competition. ...what does the food look like ? Composed of ?
 

Sulcata_Sandy

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In regards to long fibre diets, my INDOOR 50 lb Sulcata (yep, you heard me right, it's wet and freezing in Oregon) is on 100% hay (orchard blend) and IMHO doing very well on it. I have a 5 lb Sulcata with a cleft beak and palate that has extreme difficulty eating, so in order to boost his long fibre intake with the minced leafy greens he CAN ingest, I sprinkle hay "dust" (more or less the leftover short bits from my big Sully) on his greens. This has improved not on,y his appetite but also his stool quality to more like a normal Sulcata.

I have also recently started the same regime of hay sprinkles for all my other species of torts (Greek, Russian, Hermanni, Redfoots).

Do you feel this is a good plan for augmenting our "captive/indoor" diets? Mine are all wintering indoors now, it's freezing, muddy, raining, no vegetation currently. I am moving to a more rural area early spring so everything will change).

This thread is fascinating, I'm enjoying the questions, debate...everything.
 

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Cowboy_Ken

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Elohi said:
Contact the company and become the first US dealer. I can see those headlines already, “Stay at home mom become millionaire importing tortoise chow"

The pellets may contain viable seeds that the US agriculture dept is worried about.
 

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Testudoresearch said:
I think you have done the opposite of harm. The "harm" tends to be done by those who "kill with kindness". You are providing a much closer cycle to that which these tortoises are 'designed for' than average keepers. My guess is also that this is now one healthy tortoises. You have got it right.

This may be of some interest. These are some photos taken over several months in our own Testudo pens... we follow the same general approach. I don't even see some of them for weeks, or months on end...

I keep my tortoises outdoor, but now then if I ever keep any testudo species again, that means that I would provide the "kindness" every day and every year.

We don't have winter here, only rainy season and our dry season is not as hot as there. I have greens growing everyday full year. So, that means that I need to remove them from outdoor and provide one day eat, two days off eating cycle? And also provide them with artificial hibernation? And also, calcium supplementation is a must every day since I'm pretty sure our soil's calcium is not high due to half year raining...
 

ulkal

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lilacdragon said:
[...]

In spring, when food is in good supply, they can grow fast; but at that time - and only at that time - the solar radiation is suitable for full morning basking; its warmth and short-wavelength infrared stimulates healthy bone and scute growth, its UVB ensures vitamin D3 levels are optimal too... and the humidity levels are possibly higher under green vegetation and maybe dawn dews also moisten the scutes occasionally, so contributing to softer keratin and healthy shell growth.

[...] Italics mine

okay, 1 second, I am confused. In the German Wikipedia-article they state, that IR-A is the short-wavelength Infrared. Please see the graphic here:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrarotstrahlung
It also states that the "range of IR-B is founded on the waterabsorption at 1450 nm"
Above it was stated that IR-A gets filtered out and actually contributes to drying. Can someone please 'enlighten' me?Thanks!
 
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