What is the physiology behind pyramiding?

[gtc]

Thank you Testudoresearch for sharing your knowledge. I have a greek tortoise, I live in northen Europe (cold climate), my tort lives mostly indoors and I am afraid I am doing everything you warn against

I it is difficult that far north, but it can be done. There is some very good info on my friend Per-Anders Swedish Website.

He uses the 'days off' feeding/activity system, and employs a very good diet based on Agrob Pre/Pro Alpin. He captive breeds and his tortoises are really nice. There are also some keepers in Denmark using similar methods. Otto not only has done a lot of field research himself (specializing in Testudo marginata), but also has good examples and advice that is relevant for keepers in Northern Europe. His website is marginata.dk . There is good advice and housing ideas there... as with all of us, we are still learning more all the time, so I think maybe some of the lamp positions used there might be different now...

1. We are running some tests now and should have more data soon.

2. I give three days a week with 'off time' on average.

3. If using an diet indoors, Agrob Pre/Pro Alpin is really excellent as a base. High fibre, low protein, works very well. I do not know of a direct equivalent in the US, unfortunately. Available within the EU only, I believe.

Thank you for the great info, I'll check those websites. I use Pro alpin. When you say "off time", do you mean both lights and food, only food or only lights?

Thanks again

 

[gtc]

I read through Per-Anders Swedish Website and marginata.dk, they are both great and I recommend them to anyone with Testudo species. I am making some changes to how take care of my greek due to those sites.

On another note, there has been talk about basking spot vs basking zone and that a basking zone is recommended. Wouldnt that mean that a powerful mvb would be better than a small basking bulb with a uvb tube (the exact opposite of what some recommend)? My thinking is that a small basking bulb creates a concentrated hot spot while a big mvb creates a bigger basking zone.....am I way off here?

 

[Testudoresearch]

On another note, there has been talk about basking spot vs basking zone and that a basking zone is recommended. Wouldnt that mean that a powerful mvb would be better than a small basking bulb with a uvb tube (the exact opposite of what some recommend)? My thinking is that a small basking bulb creates a concentrated hot spot while a big mvb creates a bigger basking zone.....am I way off here?

No. You are basically correct.

There is a direct relationship between the size of the 'target' animal, and the proportion of coverage achieved by the surface area and 'beam width' of the lamp. Multiple factors affect the precise heating pattern obtained from lamps, and also the time scale involved in distributing the heat from the lamp throughout the tortoise's body. These include:
a) The size and mass of the animal
b) The power and physical size of the basking source
c) The beam distribution (e.g. spot vs. flood)
d) The background (ambient) temperature
e) The distance from the heat source to the animal

So, there are several variables.

In short, a small lamp positioned close to the tortoise will produce a more concentrated effect that a large, wide-beam lamp positioned at a greater distance. What matters very much is the relative size and power of the lamp to the animal. A 5 cm juvenile will respond quite differently from a 30 cm adult under an identical lamp. The larger the tortoise, the more extreme the effect is.

Use at close range greatly exaggerates extreme local heating effects, and causes very severe drying and dehydration problems. Larger sized lamps with a broad beam used further away are in this respect preferable to small, lower powered lamps at close quarters. The risk of thermal damage to sensitive tissues is also greatly reduced by this approach.

To address your previous question, yes, we would not feed on those 'off' or 'quiet' days. The idea is to give a break from the unnatural 365-day constant feeding activity patterns so often seen in captive animals. By giving 'rest' periods, this is not only much closer to natural behavior, but has very critical implications for gut function and digestion. This is another area 90% of "hobby" tortoise keepers seriously underestimate or ignore altogether.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

The idea is to give a break from the unnatural 365-day constant feeding activity patterns so often seen in captive animals. By giving 'rest' periods, this is not only much closer to natural behavior, but has very critical implications for gut function and digestion.

January: Rare activity
February: Usually hibernating
March: Usually emerge mid-late March
April: Peak activity
May: Peak activity
June: Much less activity, possibly none
July: None
August: None (except in thunderstorm for very brief period)
September: Usually come out of estivation mid-September with thunderstorms, nests hatch.
October: Moderate activity
November: Moderate activity
December: Possibly some activity

Forced 365 day activity and feeding is also a huge problem with many species.

Please don't read this with sarcasm. I'm genuinely asking...

You show these guys as being active for a few months here and then not active for a few months there. So, how is a few days a week 'rest' closer to natural behavior? Wouldn't a few months at time 'rest' be more accurate to say it's closer to natural behavior?

My Leopards are active all year and the Russian(s) outdoors brumate and aestivate on their own. At this time I don't plan to stop daily feeding but I'm trying to understand your perspective better.

 

[Testudoresearch]

Please don't read this with sarcasm. I'm genuinely asking...

You show these guys as being active for a few months here and then not active for a few months there. So, how is a few days a week 'rest' closer to natural behavior? Wouldn't a few months at time 'rest' be more accurate to say it's closer to natural behavior?

My Leopards are active all year and the Russian(s) outdoors brumate and aestivate on their own. At this time I don't plan to stop daily feeding but I'm trying to understand your perspective better.

You are quite correct in that an ideal situation is to provide naturally regulated inactivity cycles through estivation and hibernation/brumation. Certainly if you are in a climatic zone that permits this, then this is by far the best solution. It is precisely what I am able to do here, for example. However... for many years I did live in a climatic zone (cold, wet Northern Europe) where achieving estivation in particular is very difficult indeed - the temperatures just do not reach sufficient levels. It is also a problem for anyone keeping indoors for a significant period. Estivation requires quite a specific set of environmental conditions. So, while it is acknowledged that this is "the best" solution, it may be impractical for many people simply because they live in a climate zone where achieving those conditions is difficult or impossible.

I have always said that the closer you live to the natural bioclimatic zone of the species kept, the easier things get from the maintenance perspective. This is very true, as those of us who have struggled with very different conditions know, whether keeping tropical forest species in a desert, or arid habitat species in a wet, humid climate know to their cost. This results in major obstacles, which are difficult and costly to overcome, and even then, the results may leave much to be desired.

If the keeper is in a location where natural conditions cannot be exploited to produce a more representative activity cycle, then some artificial means are required to reduce over-feeding and consequently artificially accelerated growth.

In your situation, you probably do not need to adopt that approach. This greatly depends on your local climate, however, and is a good example of how "one size fits all" husbandry advice can be quite misleading. It is always necessary to take into account the area where the animals are being kept. Even within the US, conditions vary hugely. How humidity management is approached will be different for a keeper in say, Georgia, than it is for a keeper in Arizona or Nevada.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

'over feeding' and too rapid growth contribute to excessive pyramiding in captive tortoises. By over feeding, I mean that in captivity our animals have to work very little for foods that may well be much more nutrient dense than what they would ever scrounge for much of the time in the wild. I suspect many captive raise animals have accelerated growth compared to wild roaming ones, and much less exercise is involved in their finding food. // but might it not play a part?

* I agree with this based on our experience and observations!

 

[Testudoresearch]

There are quite a number of papers where wild vs. captive growth has been plotted, involving several species. Like all papers, they are of varying quality, but one thing is very consistent across all of them (to the best of my knowledge - I can only refer with confidence to those I have read), and that is that for the reasons Nearpass highlights very succinctly, captive growth rates are typically substantially greater.

This has inevitable consequences for health and development. The incidence of Metabolic Bone Disease in high-growth rate animals in captivity is incredibly high, even when directly compared to animals on similar regimes but lower energy inputs, and consequently slower-grown.

To put this in simple terms, if you grow an animal at an accelerated rate, you are "pushing the envelope" in terms of meeting skeletal needs for minerals, hormones and other essential components such as D3 that are critical to constructing a healthy bone structure. If just one of these is not adequate, or the balance is wrong, then the resulting bones will be defective: too weak, too flexible, suffering from lesions, etc. The margin for error is really very small.

 

[edwardbo]

aldabraman,please explain, what did you see ,

 

[Elohi]

This has inevitable consequences for health and development. The incidence of Metabolic Bone Disease in high-growth rate animals in captivity is incredibly high, even when directly compared to animals on similar regimes but lower energy inputs, and consequently slower-grown.

This reminds me of the studies in human teens regarding high milk consumption as teens, rapid growth rate, and hip injuries breaks/replacements later in life. Rapid growth does indeed have it's consequences. To what degree in tortoises, I have yet to learn. I love this thread.

---

And in those human studies, lower milk consumption led to slower growth, less height, and far fewer hip injuries and breaks/replacements later in life. Go figure.

 

[edwardbo]

team goldberg,i think its more about what is going on in the gut ,like brewing beer, it has to ferment, or ageing wine. dont cows do something simular ,they eat , then they chew thier cud ,.....fat people are hungry because they are in need of nutrient,thier intestines are so packed that they dont absorb certain things.........TESTUDO how about making a trans keritin patch to put on torts shell like ladys put under thier eyes .?...i think the same type of problems we see in torts happens with dogs hips and elbows, thier system is not desighned to have such fortified food.

 

[Testudoresearch]

This reminds me of the studies in human teens regarding high milk consumption as teens, rapid growth rate, and hip injuries breaks/replacements later in life. Rapid growth does indeed have it's consequences. To what degree in tortoises, I have yet to learn. I love this thread.

---

And in those human studies, lower milk consumption led to slower growth, less height, and far fewer hip injuries and breaks/replacements later in life. Go figure.

---

I agree with you and am convinced beyond doubt that the comparison is a valid one. You only have to read the veterinary journals to see case-after-case linking excess growth to subsequent orthopedic problems. Cats, dogs, horses, reptiles... everything. I mentioned above that there are studies comparing wild to captive growth, this is just an example (one of many) but the results are pretty typical.

 

[julietteq]

Does anybody maybe have a linegraph that shows the growthrate of leo's in the wild? That way we can make sure we stay on the line with our captive loved ones.

 

[Sulcata_Sandy]

'over feeding' and too rapid growth contribute to excessive pyramiding in captive tortoises. By over feeding, I mean that in captivity our animals have to work very little for foods that may well be much more nutrient dense than what they would ever scrounge for much of the time in the wild. I suspect many captive raise animals have accelerated growth compared to wild roaming ones, and much less exercise is involved in their finding food. // but might it not play a part?

* I agree with this based on our experience and observations!

This is 100% true in mammals as well, and contributes to growth abnormalities and later joint and cardiac disease in adulthood. A rolly-polly fat puppy is NOT healthy. It's being over fed. Same is true for all growing bone and soft tissue...less is indeed more. Unless you have extensive experience in judging what an overweight Chelonian looks like, it's very difficult to judge true body mass. Slow, controlled, steady growth is key to a healthy adult and later geriatric animal, regardless of taxonomic rank.

 

[Elohi]

This is 100% true in mammals as well, and contributes to growth abnormalities and later joint and cardiac disease in adulthood. A rolly-polly fat puppy is NOT healthy. It's being over fed. Same is true for all growing bone and soft tissue...less is indeed more. Unless you have extensive experience in judging what an overweight Chelonian looks like, it's very difficult to judge true body mass. Slow, controlled, steady growth is key to a healthy adult and later geriatric animal, regardless of taxonomic rank.

This is an area where I have a lot of interest. (Human nutrition)
Not quite on topic (bear with me it comes back to topic) the rolly polly puppy example reminds me of how us humans think that a baby covered in fat rolls is a heathy baby. That they need this fat reserve should they become ill. So here's the thing. Fat rolls aren't a sign of health in a human of any age, why on earth do we reserve this strange way of thinking towards infants. An infant should have a healthy body fat just like a juvenile or an adult. Feeding them full of man made formula has caused infant growth rates to increase dramatically and GI illnesses and systemic diseases to skyrocket. How many babies have reflux? How many babies have allergies?? Abnormal numbers of them because of their diet. Corn syrup solids, soy proteins, and bovine lactose is not human infant food. Human breast milk is. And that mothers milk should be clear of the same ingredients that cause so many problems and increased growth rates in formula fed babies. That is why there is a separate growth rate chart for breastfed babies...they DO NOT grow as fast as their formula fed counterparts.

I'm not sure how we can provide the right balance for our captive tortoises to keep their growth rate more natural but I'd sure like some insight. I have leopards and as some of you know I've inquired about a more natural diet in another thread. I'd also be interested in a feeding schedule that would yield the best results.

 

[nearpass]

Very few of us, I believe, have a real comprehension of the nature of the environments many tortoises come from, and the reasons for their adaptations. Poor tortoise, we think, surely I can provide much better for him...optimal conditions and diet, as it were, based on what WE think that should be. How can hibernation, and estivation, and dried up weeds be the best, when we can do so much more for them? Wouldn't it be fine if we give them that optimal life, if we can meet all their needs, or better yet, provide then with even better?

Problem is, we know next to nothing about much of this, and are making many assumptions, much as we've done with other animals, not for the good, in the long run, of any of us. Tortoises have survived quite nicely for millions of years living a pretty grueling existence by our standards, til we came along and messed things up for many of them, particularly those 'desolate' environments so many of them can live in. Just because we CAN provide them with more, I don't think we should be going that route. I think we should be focusing much more on adjusting our 'keeping methodologies' rather than trying to adjust the tortoises to what we find comfortable, or convenient or pleasing to our environments and 'sensibilities.'.

I applaud many of the European keepers and breeders whose web sites I have visited. They put major emphasis on having an adequate outdoor enclosure, with descriptions of how to accomplish that, and on hibernation for at least a couple of months, at least for testudo species I have seen. Many refuse to sell hatchlings unless these requirements can be met. I'm sure this is not a perfect solution by any stretch, and not universal, but it is an attempt.

 

[Yvonne G]

I have a male sulcata that came to me when he was about 35lbs. He had some pyramiding, but just little points in the middle of each scute...not bad, but not smooth. He lives outside. Always has, ever since I got him. He has a heated house for winter.

I don't feed this tortoise. He has to make do with whatever he finds growing in his pen. During the summer, that would be plenty of bermuda grass and weeds. In the winter, the grass is dormant and brown, and if there is no rain, no weeds. So for about five months out of the year, my 110lb sulcata subsists on brown grass.

I've had him now for about 20 years. He looks and acts perfectly healthy. Only time will tell if this on-again, off-again diet has done him any long run harm.

 

[julietteq]

I don't feed this tortoise. He has to make do with whatever he finds growing in his pen. During the summer, that would be plenty of bermuda grass and weeds. In the winter, the grass is dormant and brown, and if there is no rain, no weeds. So for about five months out of the year, my 110lb sulcata subsists on brown grass.


[/quote]

That is so interesting. I would love to provide an environment like that for my leo's. How big is the pen and do you maybe have pictures of it so I can see what it looks like?

 

[nearpass]

I have a male sulcata that came to me when he was about 35lbs. He had some pyramiding, but just little points in the middle of each scute...not bad, but not smooth. He lives outside. Always has, ever since I got him. He has a heated house for winter.

I don't feed this tortoise. He has to make do with whatever he finds growing in his pen. During the summer, that would be plenty of bermuda grass and weeds. In the winter, the grass is dormant and brown, and if there is no rain, no weeds. So for about five months out of the year, my 110lb sulcata subsists on brown grass.

I've had him now for about 20 years. He looks and acts perfectly healthy. Only time will tell if this on-again, off-again diet has done him any long run harm.

I would be willing to bet he's as healthy as any captive raised sulcata could ever be...bet he's in excellent shape

 

[ulkal]

I agree with you and when the day comes on which I can translate my hopefully by then acquired real comprehension of natural environments of my tortoises into my living room/ garden, I promise I will. Of course this would be the best for the tortoises, because this is how they survived for millions of years as you pointed out. It would spare us the trial and error of "tinkering" to get them healthy in capitivity.

As of now, I doubt any of us can emulate those natural environments thousands of kilometers away to the detail (like setting miniwildfires in the garden, mimicking drought- how you know its time for a drought?). I do not say we should not try or at least take what we know and apply it the best way we can- according to our circumstances. (Right now I am blasting 250€ worth of lighting and heating equipment behind me to do so) There are still some chelonian secrets to uncover. I am thankful to people like Testudoresearch, who tirelessly try to do so (Thanks again for sharing your experience, I learned a lot in this thread. Glad, you are a member here). This goes also for people like Tom, who equally tirelessly try to find husbandry techniques that fit the situation (sorry for sloppy phrasing- and likewise!)
Maybe it really comes down to preference?


I commend those breeders, too. Its just so funny how according to those ads, Testudos could never ever live without outdoor time, but others like leopards easily could.
__________________________________________________________
I am aware that I accounted with extreme situations when talking about creating natural environments. I hope you still get what I mean.

Very few of us, I believe, have a real comprehension of the nature of the environments many tortoises come from, and the reasons for their adaptations. Poor tortoise, we think, surely I can provide much better for him...optimal conditions and diet, as it were, based on what WE think that should be. How can hibernation, and estivation, and dried up weeds be the best, when we can do so much more for them? Wouldn't it be fine if we give them that optimal life, if we can meet all their needs, or better yet, provide then with even better?

Problem is, we know next to nothing about much of this, and are making many assumptions, much as we've done with other animals, not for the good, in the long run, of any of us. Tortoises have survived quite nicely for millions of years living a pretty grueling existence by our standards, til we came along and messed things up for many of them, particularly those 'desolate' environments so many of them can live in. Just because we CAN provide them with more, I don't think we should be going that route. I think we should be focusing much more on adjusting our 'keeping methodologies' rather than trying to adjust the tortoises to what we find comfortable, or convenient or pleasing to our environments and 'sensibilities.'.

I applaud many of the European keepers and breeders whose web sites I have visited. They put major emphasis on having an adequate outdoor enclosure, with descriptions of how to accomplish that, and on hibernation for at least a couple of months, at least for testudo species I have seen. Many refuse to sell hatchlings unless these requirements can be met. I'm sure this is not a perfect solution by any stretch, and not universal, but it is an attempt.

 

[nearpass]

I agree with you and when the day comes on which I can translate my hopefully by then acquired real comprehension of natural environments of my tortoises into my living room/ garden, I promise I will. Of course this would be the best for the tortoises, because this is how they survived for millions of years as you pointed out. It would spare us the trial and error of "tinkering" to get them healthy in capitivity.

As of now, I doubt any of us can emulate those natural environments thousands of kilometers away to the detail (like setting miniwildfires in the garden, mimicking drought- how you know its time for a drought?). I do not say we should not try or at least take what we know and apply it the best way we can- according to our circumstances. (Right now I am blasting 250€ worth of lighting and heating equipment behind me to do so) There are still some chelonian secrets to uncover. I am thankful to people like Testudoresearch, who tirelessly try to do so (Thanks again for sharing your experience, I learned a lot in this thread. Glad, you are a member here). This goes also for people like Tom, who equally tirelessly try to find husbandry techniques that fit the situation (sorry for sloppy phrasing- and likewise!)
Maybe it really comes down to preference?


I commend those breeders, too. Its just so funny how according to those ads, Testudos could never ever live without outdoor time, but others like leopards easily could.
__________________________________________________________
I am aware that I accounted with extreme situations when talking about creating natural environments. I hope you still get what I mean.

I certainly do understand, and agree 100%. I struggle with this issue a great deal, because I know, where I live, I can only make a meager attempt with my hermanni. But, I have discovered it's much easier to 'be nice' to them, than to 'be mean'...by 'mean' I am trying to say, doing things like feeding less often, and days with no light. I'm going to be instituting that from now on, a small attempt at some adjustment. Years ago, when my torts were just in a box in the living room under a window, with only an incandescent bulb, they would slow themselves down in the fall, burrow into corners, and become inactive as we kept our room temperatures on the cool side and heated with wood. I kind of ignored them, turned the light on daily, but fed them maybe once a week. They did quite nicely, and went outside all spring and summer. Then the internet came along, and I read more, and began to feel guilty Now I'm rethinking, and 'stepping backward.' Not a total answer, as you say, but maybe a small step.