What I consider sexually mature

Status
Not open for further replies.

allegraf

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Jul 23, 2008
Messages
1,433
There has been questions on cherryheads and what size they really become sexually mature. Some say it depends on the size of the tort or whether the tort is exhibiting sexual behavior. I think it depends on the size of the female's anal opening. Boys will be boys and may be precocious at a small size, but there is no harm in allowing juvenile males to learn the ropes early on a mature female.

I believe that the danger arises more for the females. The anal opening is where the eggs will come out of and likewise should be wide enough to accommodate a ping pong sized egg. If the anal opening is too small, there is a risk that the tort will become egg bound and may die.

Again it is my opinion that sexual maturity is not based on size. For example, I have a XL female that is 1/8" shy of 11" and a smaller female at 9 1/4". As you can see the smaller female's anal openings is way larger than the XL female. The XL female has not been exposed to any males to date since her anal opening has not been large enough to safely pass an egg. The smaller female has been in our breeding program for the last three years, her anal opening was large enough when she was about 8 1/4". Here are the pics of the two of them next to each other so you can see the SCL and anal scute size differences.

P1010006-1.jpg

P1010007-1.jpg

P1010005.jpg

P1010004-1.jpg


Another example of where shell size is not a good indicator of sexual maturity is two of our smaller torts. They are about 9 1/4" and 8 1/4". The larger one has had three clutches to date. The smaller one is way too small to pass any eggs based on the size of the anal opening.
P1010018.jpg

P1010016.jpg

P1010017.jpg


PS
There does seem to be a range for the cherryheads in terms of size. There are some females that grow quickly in size but take longer to reach sexual maturity and others that mature at a small size. Cherryheads come in all different shapes, sizes and colors. This lends to the theory that there are a "subspecies" within the cherryhead. But that is for another discussion.
 

cdmay

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
1,945
Location (City and/or State)
Somewhere in Florida
Excellent explanation with photos Allegra. All good points too.
As for the issue of size descrepancies between cherryheads pointing to them being of differing subspecies, I would say it means nothing.
Look at yellowfoot tortoises and you will find a HUGE gap in the sizes of breeding females. But nobody makes a peep about that indicating that there must be different subspecies of C. denticulata. Some female yellowfoots grow to only be about 11 inches (I've seen old imports even smaller) while others grow to be 18 or 20 inches. Or more.
You can even say the same thing about Surinam redfoot males...some max out at 12 inches while others get to be 17 inches.
Cherryheads are like yellowfoots (C. denticulata) in that they are simply a highly variable race of tortoises. Like yellowfoot tortoises, cherryheads come in variable shapes, sizes and colors.
The point is that when it comes to breeding cherryheads you need to determine if your female is ready or not, regardless of her size.
 

allegraf

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Jul 23, 2008
Messages
1,433
As for the issue of size descrepancies between cherryheads pointing to them being of differing subspecies, I would say it means nothing.


I guess it is more wishful thinking on my part. :)
 

tortoisenerd

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
3,957
Location (City and/or State)
Washington
Thanks for sharing! Very interesting. Totally makes since to consider the ability for the egg to pass, not just size or age. I'm curious in a biological since however why a tort would mate and be able to produce eggs if it could not pass the clutch and therefore become egg bound. Are there other species this happens to?
 

EricIvins

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
1,183
Thats why the Eggs are soft and pliable when laid......If a Female is going to produce, she's going to produce.......Her body tells her that, not any Male.....

When a Female becomes Egg bound, it's due to captive husbandry......Nobody can change what's biologically meant to be......
 

N2TORTS

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
8,803
Excellent info ! ......
Very well written and great photos......
Thank you for posting ~
JD~:)
 

cdmay

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
1,945
Location (City and/or State)
Somewhere in Florida
EricIvins said:
Thats why the Eggs are soft and pliable when laid......

Redfoot eggs are not soft and pliable when laid. They are completely hard and rigid as they emerge from the female's cloaca.
And females that get bred (regardless of the cause) when the opening between their plastron and carapace is too small to pass an egg can be in real danger.
I've seen two young females that had this occur and the hard shelled eggs had to be broken just to get them past the shell opening. This went on for every clutch they produced until they were large enough to pass their eggs. Some of the eggs could be worked out of their shells with soapy water but most had to be broken. It was highly stressful for everyone involved.
 

allegraf

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Jul 23, 2008
Messages
1,433
My tort's eggs are not soft or pliable either. They are hard as ever even when collected immediately after the female has laid the eggs.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top