Vivariums for Tortoises

[Kadaan]

EJ mentioned in another thread that vivariums are vehemently discouraged on the UK reptile forum as habitats for tortoises.

Provided you can keep the vivarium at the proper temperatures with a heat gradient, basking spot, adequate humidity, and ventilation so the air doesn't get stale, what's wrong with a vivarium?


Some possible arguments:

"Tortoises will try to walk through the glass and get stressed" - This is true for open-top enclosures with transparent sides, and is more an argument against glass walls than directly against a vivarium. A short sight barrier of tape/paper a couple inches high is enough to still allow you to view inside.

"There's no ventilation!" - I don't know what 'adequate ventilation' would be, but as long as there's a decent section of screened area to allow air to flow through the enclosure I'd think it would be fine. The showcase cages have a strip of screening that goes lengthwise across about 1/3 of the top, and creates a gap when stacked to allow air to flow through:

What are the other reasons against a vivarium?

 

[Yvonne G]

They're usually built with sides that are too high, and this is where the no ventilation theory came into play. Obviously Terryo has made an aquarium work for her. Her little Redfoot is a beautiful specimen.

 

[Rhyno47]

I only use vivs for my aquatic species. I am going to replace them with opaque containers soon though.

 

[chairman]

Provided you can keep the vivarium at the proper temperatures with a heat gradient, basking spot, adequate humidity, and ventilation so the air doesn't get stale, what's wrong with a vivarium?

Therein lies the crux of the viv argument, I think. "Vivariums" as most people understand them are fish tanks. They're too tall, don't have enough floor space, don't allow ventilation, don't allow for temperature gradients, yadda yadda yadda. Personally, I think vivs can be great homes for torts. They certainly seem to have treated my torts well.

I think that vivs are much hated because the 'stereotypical' viv owner is the one who goes to supersizepetstoreusa and buys a baby sulcata to live in a 10 galllon tank and then procedes to feed it nothing but lettuce a couple times a week if they remember to pick it up while they're at the grocery store.

For folks that are willing to spend the time and energy to research other people's opinions on the needs of their torts, acceptable vivs can be put together, whether they be a permanent home for a small tort, a bad-weather only home, or a temporary home for torts too small or too sick to be placed elsewhere.

 

[bettinge]

I think that vivs are much hated because the 'stereotypical' viv owner is the one who goes to supersizepetstoreusa and buys a baby sulcata to live in a 10 galllon tank and then procedes to feed it nothing but lettuce a couple times a week if they remember to pick it up while they're at the grocery store.

For folks that are willing to spend the time and energy to research other people's opinions on the needs of their torts, acceptable vivs can be put together, whether they be a permanent home for a small tort, a bad-weather only home, or a temporary home for torts too small or too sick to be placed elsewhere.
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Well written.....I agree!

 

[terryo]

I also use planted vivariums for all my boxies when inside. I like the fact that they are high because it gives the plants room to grow. I have a screen top for air flow. I cover the back, sides, and about 6 - 7 inches across the front. I have never had anyone ...boxies or my tortoise try to get out or get stressed. The plants provide natural cover, and I put plenty of leaf litter on one side for them to dig in and hide. I don't use any half log or any other kind of hide in the boxie's vivarium. I try to keep it as natural as I can, and only probide the plants and leaf litter for them to hide in. But my tortoise has a hide in his viv. I love planted vivariums for humidity loving species, and have been doing this for boxies for well over 20 years...while they are inside.
I also like vivariums because they look good, and you can keep them in a part of the house that lets you interact with your "pet". Once they reach a certain age they go outside, and are always outside in the summer...if the weather is good. I am not saying this is the right way to do things, as I believe there is NO right way, only the way that works best for me. Also I don't know about any other kind of tortoise only the one that I have.
Pio in his viv. looking for a worm.

When Chewy hears me in the room, she comes out looking for a yummy.

 

[Kadaan]

I just read through the whole 15-page thread on shelled warriors, Why are vivariums and glass tanks bad? (and I see EJ posting a lot in that thread defending vivs .) The common arguments against it are what I listed above:

1. "There's no ventilation and heat gradient, it's like an oven and you're just cooking your tortoise"
2. "They're too small"
3. "The glass stresses the tortoise"

#1 is only a problem if you have a completely enclosed box. Most vivs that house torts have open/screened tops so this isn't an issue.
#2 is utter BS. Just because it's a viv doesn't mean it's too small. A standard 55g aquarium used as a viv has 48x12" of floor space, which is comparable to many of the common plastic tubs (the biggest one I could find at Target was 44"x20", but only 6" high.)
#3 is debatable. If it's too small and there's not a lot of "stuff" in the enclosure to walk/hide in/around then the tort will exhibit the "trying to walk through the glass" behavior. Even in a table though, if it's too small the tort tries to climb the sides (which is the same thing as trying to walk through glass, except they can't see through it.)

All three "anti-viv" arguments are really just anti-small-enclosure arguments. It seems like they just have a bad reputation because of all the people who do zero research on how to care for a tortoise and pick up a 10 or 20 gallon tank for an adult tortoise.

 

[terryo]

Tom on TurtleTails.com only uses planted vivariums and he never covers the sides. He interacts with all his boxies and water turtles (has no tortoises). He considers them pets and has his hatchlings right on his desk where he can see them and they can see him. He also has a water turtle that walks around his house and tells him when he wants to go outside. He has the most beautiful vivariums and all his boxies and water turtles are picture perfect. He also has ponds, and water bogs. His site is amazing, and through the years I have copied many ideas from him.

 

[Stephanie Logan]

Well, Taco did/does have the problem of trying to ram through glass, and she continued to do it even after I put a 4" sight block on the tub side of her enclosure. Little booger would just raise her head WAY up and see over the top to the Promised Land on the far side. Then she would stand up against it and push so hard her little feet left two deep tracks in her substrate. It was pretty funny.

The irony is, vivariums are so attractive to this human owner of a small tortoise, that I'd love to have Taco in one because then I could watch her all the time without having to stand next to her table and look down on her. So, I'm hereby officially complaining that someone needs to teach my tort to love glass walls so I can be happy!

 

[terryo]

Maybe because mine have been in there since they were hatchlings, so they don't know any better.....also, I don't think Pio is the brightest bulb in the box...if you know what I mean...lol

 

[Madkins007]

I think this is another example of an "all or nothing" argument. Because some things have been abused by unknowing keepers in the past, we reject that element completely- throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

There is nothing automatically evil about aquariums used correctly- that is, with good heating, enough floor space, etc. Or, if you want to put it another way, almost all problems with aquaria would also apply to the same sized tub or box (assuming you covered the glass as needed.)

The same thing applies to:
- Iceberg lettuce, which got a bad rap as part of the old 'lettuce and hamburger diet', but by itself makes a perfectly good bulky filler for light feeding days, or to supplement a more nutritious diet.
- Cabbage, kale, and other brassicas, which if fed in excess can lead to goiter, but are great as part of a better diet.
- 'Belly heat' which got a bad rap because of overly hot heated rocks and older under tank heaters, while the idea of gentle belly heat has lots of benefits.

I am often amazed at what 'no-no's' are based on old mis-uses and abuses- in most parts of life, not just tortoise keeping. I honestly believe that aquaria habitats fall in this category.

 

[Tim/Robin]

I am often amazed at what 'no-no's' are based on old mis-uses and abuses- in most parts of life, not just tortoise keeping. I honestly believe that aquaria habitats fall in this category.

Bingo!! Agreed. You are a wise man!!

 

[terryo]

(Today 06:27 AM)Madkins007 Wrote:
I am often amazed at what 'no-no's' are based on old mis-uses and abuses- in most parts of life, not just tortoise keeping. I honestly believe that aquaria habitats fall in this category.

I totally agree Mark.

 

[Meg90]

On the subject of see through walls....I use frosted tubs. They are semi clear, and I know my torts can partially see out. Only one who has a problem with it is Nigel, and he was WC. I feel terrible for him, when he paces or tries to get out. He wants more space. The girls have never shown any issue with it. And Anouk doesn't even TRY to climb her walls or walk through them. She is such a mellow, sweet girl. She could easily escape, but has not even tried (she's outgrown her second baby bin) I'm just itching for walmart to get the xmas tree bins in. She needs a big girl habitat.

 

[stells]

I would just like to mention that not all of us on these UK forums believe they are all bad...

I always say if set up right they can be a good home.... i do keep all mine on tables but that is my choice and i like floor space provided by a table... we do see alot of vivs over here as you probably do there too that just aren't set up correctly... and i have a couple of rehomers that have come from that kind of enviroment.... that didn't fair to well...

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I have several animals in vivs now and have used them for years. You just have to keep on top of the situation and don't cook a small tortoise or little turtle with too much light or heat....

 

[tortoisenerd]

I think there are some big differences between an aquarium and a suitable vivarium. Yes, it can be done but it isn't as easy to set up as a tort table or plastic tub.

 

[terryo]

I think there are some big differences between an aquarium and a suitable vivarium. Yes, it can be done but it isn't as easy to set up as a tort table or plastic tub.

This is true, but once it's set up, there is little or no maintenance. Everyday, I check to see if there is any poop (I like to get it first before he does) and take it out with a paper towel. He rarely bothers the plants because they are close to the sides. All you have to do is mist the plants and change the water. I only change the substrate twice a year.

 

[Madkins007]

I think there are some big differences between an aquarium and a suitable vivarium. Yes, it can be done but it isn't as easy to set up as a tort table or plastic tub.

OK, tubs are cheaper and lighter, and rarely transparent. Only the last item affects the tortoise. Other than that- what are the differences you speak of?

 

[stells]

I think it was the difference between a glass aquarium and a vivarium that was being addressed not the difference between a viv and a table/tub...