UVB not a necessity???

[nrfitchett4]

O.K. after the pyramiding thread almost got hyjacked by uvb, let's have it out.
Seems there are some out there that don't UVB. Is this bad or not?
And for those that don't UVB, do your torts get natural rays or vitamin d supplement?
I am curious because I read that ig's don't process dietary d3 very well and they need sunlight or UVB every day to prevent MBD.
I wonder if this is true for torts?
Right now I don't have a UVB because I ordered it online and it hasn't come yet. But Shelly has been getting about an hour a day of sun outside here in SA.

 

[Millerlite]

Reptiles need UVB to produce D3, Some people dont use the bulbs, but it doesnt mean the tortoises never go out during the warm months. There are a few people that dont use it i personally have a MVB bulb but others can let you know how it goes with out it.

 

[TKCARDANDCOIN]

Your tortoise needs uvb!!!!

 

[Jacqui]

At my house, some have the UVB lights, some don't. All the youngsters have the lights. The redfoots and hingeback kids have a lower power one, then the other youngsters. Any new tort I get in, I assume may not have been getting outside time, so they also get the light.

The rest of my collection of adults don't get UV lights, but do get lighting. My adults live outside when the weather permits. So far, I am not seeing problems with health issues, activity levels, eating, ect.., This is the first year I have gone this way with all the adults. I tried it for many years with my hingebacks and had no trouble, but once more they are not high UV users.

 

[-EJ]

Reptiles don't need artificial UVB... give it a little thought. There are other sources of vitamin D.

So... UVB is not necessary.

 

[Meg90]

So, if I lived without sunlight for 20 years, but still took a multivitamin, I wouldn't have any bad health effects?

That makes no sense.

 

[Millerlite]

I know for my Greek tortoises i use to have, i didn't use UVB bulbs. They were healthy and growing quite well. My greek tortoises had Vitamin supplements and on warm days, they would go outside. I still used a heating bulb which was just a bulb that gave off heat and light so they can have a day night cycle.

 

[KQ6AR]

I use the t-rex active heat uvb bulb when I have some indoors. Its also acts as the heatlight. Supposedly their UV output is good for 12 months. There's no substitution for sunlight though.

Is it necessary to keep them alive- NO
Is it beneficial & good for them- Yes

If you're using the electricity anyway, why not use the good bulbs?

 

[nrfitchett4]

Reptiles don't need artificial UVB... give it a little thought. There are other sources of vitamin D.

So... UVB is not necessary.

my question is whether they can handle dietary d3. Apparently igs don't very well which is why they can get mbd even with supplementation.
Of course you could take them outside, but that isn't going very well for most of the country right now.

 

[Madkins007]

A few key points...

1. There are almost certainly different requirements for UVB or D3 in different species. Rainforest tortoises live in places with only about 2% of the light hitting the ground, while equatorial grassland species are getting big doses.

2. Humans only need about 2 exposures a week of about 15 minutes a time for their D3 needs. Tortoises are smaller and have slower metabolisms so it is unlikely they would need more than that.

3. While I can find no study that suggests an average dose of vitamin D, the 'industry accepted' ratio of fat-soluble vitamins is A:E of 100:10:1

4. I cannot find a good study that suggests that one form of D3 is better than another for tortoises. I cannot find an article that says that tortoises need D3 (sun/meat) over D2 (plant)- a lot of species do not differentiate between the two- rats, for example, cannot use D3.

5. All fat-soluble vitamins can store up in the tissues- overdoses are possible. Overdoses of D create sun-burn-like symptoms. D is available in the natural light, UVB lights, fatty fish, organ meats, eggs, mushrooms (D2), vitamins, some calcium supplements, etc. Giving extra D 'just in case' is not a good idea.

6. Skin predicts UBV abilities- comparing iguana skin to tortoise skin is comparing apples to pineapples. There is a good article at http://www.uvguide.co.uk.

7. A lot of people and zoos raise Red-foots and other turtles and tortoises with no UVB, and yet chart growth rates and reproduction rates comparable to people who DO use UVB. Here is an article about a study on Sliders comparing the growth with and without UVB when D3 is in the diet: "Anders, Ben and Moll, Dan “Do ultraviolet lights affect growth in captive turtles?” Turtle Survival Alliance, 2007 (http://www.turtlesurvival.org/resou...7annualmeeting/abstract07/ultraviolet-affect/)"

(OK- one of the things that gets attacked about this and similar studies is the idea that growth rates are not a good predictor of health. That 'may' be so, but there are few other hard and fast guidelines we can measure to compare. This is the standard for most studies like this.)

8. Meg said "So, if I lived without sunlight for 20 years, but still took a multivitamin, I wouldn't have any bad health effects?" This is a common sort of comment, but it really does not apply. You cannot compare humans and tortoises, it completely ignores the effects of D2 (which humans can use for calcium metabolism according to our company dietitian) and dietary D3 (the sources of D3 are good for us for a lot of things), and it ignores the fact that there ARE people who are raised in such environments with fewer problems than might be predicted.

9. Sadly, UVB has become almost a 'magic lamp' for keepers- I have to admit that I am really tired of hearing people shout 'UVB UVB UVB' for every issue. I also worry about 'sunblasting'- too much of a good thing is often a bad thing. Long periods of high UVB are probably not a real good thing overall.

 

[nrfitchett4]

A few key points...

1. There are almost certainly different requirements for UVB or D3 in different species. Rainforest tortoises live in places with only about 2% of the light hitting the ground, while equatorial grassland species are getting big doses.

2. Humans only need about 2 exposures a week of about 15 minutes a time for their D3 needs. Tortoises are smaller and have slower metabolisms so it is unlikely they would need more than that.

3. While I can find no study that suggests an average dose of vitamin D, the 'industry accepted' ratio of fat-soluble vitamins is A:E of 100:10:1

4. I cannot find a good study that suggests that one form of D3 is better than another for tortoises. I cannot find an article that says that tortoises need D3 (sun/meat) over D2 (plant)- a lot of species do not differentiate between the two- rats, for example, cannot use D3.

5. All fat-soluble vitamins can store up in the tissues- overdoses are possible. Overdoses of D create sun-burn-like symptoms. D is available in the natural light, UVB lights, fatty fish, organ meats, eggs, mushrooms (D2), vitamins, some calcium supplements, etc. Giving extra D 'just in case' is not a good idea.

6. Skin predicts UBV abilities- comparing iguana skin to tortoise skin is comparing apples to pineapples. There is a good article at http://www.uvguide.co.uk.

7. A lot of people and zoos raise Red-foots and other turtles and tortoises with no UVB, and yet chart growth rates and reproduction rates comparable to people who DO use UVB. Here is an article about a study on Sliders comparing the growth with and without UVB when D3 is in the diet: "Anders, Ben and Moll, Dan “Do ultraviolet lights affect growth in captive turtles?” Turtle Survival Alliance, 2007 (http://www.turtlesurvival.org/resou...7annualmeeting/abstract07/ultraviolet-affect/)"

(OK- one of the things that gets attacked about this and similar studies is the idea that growth rates are not a good predictor of health. That 'may' be so, but there are few other hard and fast guidelines we can measure to compare. This is the standard for most studies like this.)

8. Meg said "So, if I lived without sunlight for 20 years, but still took a multivitamin, I wouldn't have any bad health effects?" This is a common sort of comment, but it really does not apply. You cannot compare humans and tortoises, it completely ignores the effects of D2 (which humans can use for calcium metabolism according to our company dietitian) and dietary D3 (the sources of D3 are good for us for a lot of things), and it ignores the fact that there ARE people who are raised in such environments with fewer problems than might be predicted.

9. Sadly, UVB has become almost a 'magic lamp' for keepers- I have to admit that I am really tired of hearing people shout 'UVB UVB UVB' for every issue. I also worry about 'sunblasting'- too much of a good thing is often a bad thing. Long periods of high UVB are probably not a real good thing overall.

I didn't see a single ig on their study, so not sure what you are trying to say. Not sure an animal can OD on uvb as long as it has proper hides and ways to get out of the "sun".
I'm also not sure if being in the sun automatically causes the reptile to make vit d or if it is only made as needed.
Pretty much all of those animals were exposed to one certain bulb. That does not make all uvb bad. It also doesn't describe other habitat conditions.

 

[gummybearpoop]

I don't think every animal needs uvb...

I take my star tortoises out a few times a week for a least half an hour. I do use a uvb light for them...but I believe there is no substitute for the sun.

My redfoots don't get a uvb light and I take them out about once a month.

My redfoots tend to run from the sun, while the stars soak in it.

I am starting to really thinking about eliminating uvb lamps from my collection though....


How does a company "put uvb into a flourescent bulb" or how does a company get a flourescent bulb to "emit uvb rays"?

 

[-EJ]

The gas that is used in the bulb causes the light to be emmitted in a specific frequency range based on the type of gas.

I don't think every animal needs uvb...

I take my star tortoises out a few times a week for a least half an hour. I do use a uvb light for them...but I believe there is no substitute for the sun.

My redfoots don't get a uvb light and I take them out about once a month.

My redfoots tend to run from the sun, while the stars soak in it.

I am starting to really thinking about eliminating uvb lamps from my collection though....


How does a company "put uvb into a flourescent bulb" or how does a company get a flourescent bulb to "emit uvb rays"?

 

[KQ6AR]

Several years ago people where saying that "if
you use a good uv bulb, you shouldn't feed 3D supplement". The claim was that they could OD. I don't know whether it was ever proven or not.

 

[Millerlite]

reptiles can have to much D3, it becomes poisonous if to much.

 

[loogielv]

i just briefly scanned through this, but I had to chime in. Reptiles might not need artifical UVB, but I will NEVER go without again. When I plugged an MVB in above my beardies tank, his colors changed and brightened up almost instantly. I still get slack jawed when I see him sometimes as hes not even the same lizard. His oranges started coming out, his whites got whiter.

That alone is proof in the pudding

 

[-EJ]

last time I looked... I thought we were discussing the necessity of UVB for tortoises. If you could cite a similar example considering a tortoise... that might be impressive.

Your example really doesn't provide evidence for the necessity of UVB outside of the point that it makes the lizard prettier.

i just briefly scanned through this, but I had to chime in. Reptiles might not need artifical UVB, but I will NEVER go without again. When I plugged an MVB in above my beardies tank, his colors changed and brightened up almost instantly. I still get slack jawed when I see him sometimes as hes not even the same lizard. His oranges started coming out, his whites got whiter.

That alone is proof in the pudding

 

[loogielv]

last time I looked... I thought we were discussing the necessity of UVB for tortoises. If you could cite a similar example considering a tortoise... that might be impressive.

Your example really doesn't provide evidence for the necessity of UVB outside of the point that it makes the lizard prettier.

hrmm.. you have a valid point. I would venture to argue that it's common sense that when a lizard has brighter, prettier colors, it's certainly feeling good. However that doesn't prove my point, and certainly doesn't have bearing on torts... i'll have to ponder this awhile.

I'd suggest an experiment: 2 light bulbs, one UVA/UVB with a basking spot of say...85F (27c) and then across the enclosure, a basking spot under a regular incandescent household bulb with a basking temp of closer to 32-33c. If the tort chooses the slightly cooler basking spot, then I'd say he's feeling better from the UV rays then he would from an additional 4 or 5 degrees celsius.

Perhaps i'll give this a go one day. Anyone wanna try it first?

 

[-EJ]

The only point we are discussing is if UVB is a necessity or not. There's no doubt that it probably has benefits but it is not a need as far as tortoises are concerned.

last time I looked... I thought we were discussing the necessity of UVB for tortoises. If you could cite a similar example considering a tortoise... that might be impressive.

Your example really doesn't provide evidence for the necessity of UVB outside of the point that it makes the lizard prettier.

hrmm.. you have a valid point. I would venture to argue that it's common sense that when a lizard has brighter, prettier colors, it's certainly feeling good. However that doesn't prove my point, and certainly doesn't have bearing on torts... i'll have to ponder this awhile.

I'd suggest an experiment: 2 light bulbs, one UVA/UVB with a basking spot of say...85F (27c) and then across the enclosure, a basking spot under a regular incandescent household bulb with a basking temp of closer to 32-33c. If the tort chooses the slightly cooler basking spot, then I'd say he's feeling better from the UV rays then he would from an additional 4 or 5 degrees celsius.

Perhaps i'll give this a go one day. Anyone wanna try it first?

 

[TKCARDANDCOIN]

UVB is a necessity as far as i am concerned.I would never starve my tortoises of beneficial light!!!!!!!!!!!!!!