Update pics of my Greeks!

[atomicjade]

Hey guys, here's some more/clearer pics of my Greeks so it's better to properly identify. I also have a few questions... first of all, are they still ok to be housed together even though they are different subspecies? And two, how big will they each get?


Jade... my Jordanian/Israel =)

And Isis my possible cross?

Thanks in advance!!

 

[cvalda]

I don't have answers, just they're both gorgeous and I LOVE the Jordanian!

 

[wayne.bob]

WOW beautiful torts

 

[egyptiandan]

They really shouldn't be housed together. With the new pictures of your male, he's a light colored Lebanese T.g.antakyensis.
Your female Jordanian will get about 6 inches Straight Carapace Length (SCL). Your male T.g.antakyensis will get about 6 inches SCL also.
They look great

Danny

 

[Jentortmom]

Yeah I guessed Right - male, getting better everyday!!! They are cute by the way..

 

[atomicjade]

Ohh great! LOL I was told they were both females... guess that shows how much the guy knew. (And myself I suppose!) Also Isis isn't a very manly name so now he is Turbo! And how are these tortoises as far as the female to male ratio goes? I know with some it's more recommended to just stick with females or at least have 2 females for every male or only one male in one group... you get the idea. Just curious, how can you tell he is a male? I want to know so in the future I know what to look for!

What should I do as far as housing goes? I literally just moved them outside (it's a wooden crate 40"x47" is this big enough to last them?) and it'd be a pain to make an entire other enclosure. But if it's recommended, I'll do it, they are my responsibility! Does anyone have any good outdoor enclosure ideas? I live in Florida as well so our weather stays pretty warm/mild!

And thank you very much, I think I've learned more from Dan about these tortoises than anywhere else, just by him replying to my posts... hehe.

Uhhg one more question... is there any way to estimate how old they are? They are both about 4 1/2 inches.. and the female is 318 grams and the other 334 grams.

Of course, thanks to everyone for replying =)

 

[egyptiandan]

I've had no problem keeping pairs together outside with my greeks. I don't though keep them together when they are inside.
The tail is longer than a females would be and the edge of the anal scutes (the last pair of scutes on the plastron) is a wide open V. A female has a shorter tail and a closed V.
If you can make a pen 48 X 48 and split that in half, that would be just fine for your greeks.
They are probably both about 7 years old.

Danny

 

[Redfootedboxturtles]

My greek tortoises is the smallest and the most agressive. Any one know why? I think its because he needs a girl friend.

 

[cvalda]

My two Greeks (okay my son's Greeks) are sooooo active, they consistently climb walls and flip over and half the time can't right themselves. I check on them every couple of hours because they just don't ever stop!

 

[atomicjade]

Okay cool! So I may be missing a point here... did you initially recommend I separate them because they are different subspecies or because they are female and male? If its because they are a pair, does this mean I don't have to separate because they are outside?

And an even bigger enclosure is recommended for two of them? At least when they are full grown?

They are very much pretty mild, but are out and about looking alert at the same time. Thanks so much and sorry for all the questions!

 

[cvalda]

seperate them because they are different subspecies! and with them being different subspecies, then oven moreso that that they're male/female because you don't want to cross breed like that!

 

[atomicjade]

Not to open a can of worms.. but don't they naturally cross breed in the wild? Originally dan said that he thought my t. g. antakyensis was a natural cross between that and t. g. terrestris.

 

[cvalda]

yah i dunno! LOL I was just saying what I heard! Danny can shed some insight!

 

[egyptiandan]

Yes it does happen in the wild.
When you have a subspecies thats pure there is no need to breed it to another subspecies though. It's actually something I try not to do. but if your not paying attention it happens. It did to me this past fall. I got a large female Greek in August last year. From her size and her look I thought she was a T.g.ibera and never gave it a second thought or a second look which I should have done. She didn't quite look like my other ibera, but ibera have a huge range and have many variations. When I brought her in, in the fall, I put her in with one on my male ibera. Well they bred and she laid eggs, 3 clutches (11 eggs total). Only 2 were fertile and only 1 hatched. The hatchling was huge and didn't do well. He died 5 days after he hatched. Well with the fertility rate being so poor and the hatchling not doing well I knew they weren't a well matched pair. I was on the look out for a male that matched her better and it so happened that hermannichris had a male that I thought matched her perfectly.
I got the male and I've had him for a bit. With all my animals I never sat down and really checked him out. Well I did the other day. I was watching him and really paying attention to what he looked like. I noticed that his last vertebral scute looked big, bigger than the rest.
So I measured and yes it was the biggest scute, so that made him a T.g.antakyensis. I was kind of blown away. He was I know from Turkey as I know who owned him before Chris. This was the biggest T.g.antakyensis I had ever seen at 7 inches and the books say thats as big as they get. Well I went and looked at the female I got in August and measured her scutes. Wouldn't you know she's T.g.antakyensis too Now she's the biggest T.g.antakyensis I've ever seen at 9.5 inches So now I have T.g.antakyensis from their whole range. This just goes to show how bad fertility rates can be when you cross subspecies.
If you already had the crosses than thats another story. They did this in the wild and the area that they are from is already mixed, so there probably aren't many new crosses of the subspecies. Just matings between the crosses.

Danny

 

[Crazy1]

Danny here's another question on crosses. If you have say a cross between a T.g.Antakyensis and a Jordanian/Israeli
Who would you mate it with if you didn't have another T.g.Antakyensis and Jordanian/Israeli cross? Or would you look for another cross? An not mate until one is found?

 

[egyptiandan]

If I can help it and don't mis-identify, I always wait till I can find a match for my animals. I have a few males that have never been paired up because I can't find a match or more females.
I waited 10 years to pair up my large female T.g.ibera to a male that was her match in color. Thats the pair that produced all the hatchlings last year.

Danny

 

[Crazy1]

Make sense, however if one likes the traits of the Jordanians, then could you mate a cross to bring out (hopefully) the traits of jordanians or would you just wait for another Jordanian?

If I can help it and don't mis-identify, I always wait till I can find a match for my animals. I have a few males that have never been paired up because I can't find a match or more females.
I waited 10 years to pair up my large female T.g.ibera to a male that was her match in color. Thats the pair that produced all the hatchlings last year.

Danny

 

[cvalda]

There have been lots of Jordanians around lately, so if that's what you want, you'll find one soon! There is a Jordanian male sitting at a petstore here in my town right now. He's gorgeous and I was tempted to get him, but I have 1.1 Jordanians and really would have nothing to do with another male... Although I"m concerned Dozer's "maleness" won't be enough to breed with Zelda - he has such a "blunt" tail... Is that ever an issue?

 

[gtm]

Hi Dan,

Do hybrids have health problems? are they sterile?

 

[egyptiandan]

It shouldn't be a problem at all Kelly.

George they can have health problems, but they don't always. Usually crosses (breeding between subspecies) do well and are fertile. I think it says a lot that most of my eggs from the pairing of 2 supposed subspecies weren't fertile and the ones that were fertile had trouble as did the one hatchling. Hybrids (breeding between species) in tortoises don't always do well and fertility rates are way down. I know crosses are fertile, but not sure whether hybrids are fertile or not.

Danny