Unhealthy Sulcata

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Wirewehear

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I adopted a couple of Sulcatas off a guy who lives next to my mother-in-law. The female, Kona, is malformed. Her rear legs lay out behind her. She uses them but pushes from the tips of her feet. She cannot get them underneath her. The whole back third of her back-end looks rather squashed, in a way. Her pyramiding isnt as bad as Moe's, the male tort, but its pretty rough and just looks deformed. I will try to post pics when I figure it out on this board. Also when she pushes forward (walks) her back legs make some kind of clicking sound. Does that sound like anything anyone here has heard of?
I wasnt looking to get anymore Torts, I have 2 desert torts (bonnie & clyde) but I couldnt stand to see how these two were being kept. I'm sure the guy meant well but he wasnt doing right by them. Their full time area was about 5 x 6, all dirt, no sun and no grass/grazing for them at all. At 1st he only gave me the male because he was aggressive toward Kona, biting at her legs. From what I've read it could of been from lack of space. I talked the guy into giving me Kona about a week later and I'm not seeing that behavior here. They actually looked rather happy to see each other.
The food he gave me for them ...... everything was on the list of foods 'not' to give them. Frozen market mixed bag vegies, String bean, lima beans, black beans. For treats he gave them dog biscuts and bananas. They now have about 5000sq ft of lawn to graze on which happens to be bermuda and rye with a little fescue mixed in. I was quite happy to read that the lawn is just what they needed. The only market foods I buy them are collard greens, kale, dandelion and cactus leaves. I planted some hibiscus for them, have roses and am looking into ordering a bag of grazing seed that I'll plant along the back area. Oh and got some bermuda hay from a local stable but they dont seem to want to eat that. I break it up small and mix it in when I feed the market greens. I think thats a good start? How often should I feed the market greens?
They both had diahhria when I got them but they have firmed up after a week of normal grazing. I think Kona's shell by her tail is too close to her. Her stools have to come out flattened because there doesnt seem to be enough room for it to come out rounded like Moe's.
So there you have it for now. I just signed into this forum tonight. I did post on the introduction forum but didnt go into detail about Kona's issues.
And I noticed a senior member with the same name as mine, Yvonne, so Yve is just fine for me. And if anyone has any idea about Kona's back legs .... thank you
yve
 

dmmj

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I have never heard of legs clicking before, I honestly can't say what that might be, the shell deformity mat be what is keeping her legs out and useless, or she could just have lazy legs from not using them, pics would help a long way in saying for sure.
 

Annieski

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Yvie-Welcome---and how wonderful of you to "rescue" these 2 Sulcata. I don't know a great deal but the "long-time keepers" may be better at answering your questions---but just from the pic's--I expected them to look alot worse---they don't look too bad. I would think the watery stools is due to the diet they were previously fed and perhaps worms{parisites}.If you can take a sample and have it tested,it might answer some questions. The deformity on the smaller torts shell might be a "genetic thing" but considering its size already, its a part of this torts "life". Maybe improved living conditions will help to overcome the leg issue as well. Have you offered calcium supplements or perhaps a cuttlebone?
 

chairman

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I don't have any personal experience with it, but usually pyramiding + deformity in back end of shell + partial rear leg paralysis = metabolic bone disease (MBD). Between a vet and some more experienced folks here you should be able to get a confirmation of diagnosis and a good treatment regimen. I don't think MBD is curable, but you can do quite a bit to improve quality of life (much of which it sounds like you've already done).
 

Missy

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Yvie, I too expected them to look a lot worse. They don't look all that bad. I took in a Sulcata a week ago and she looks worse as far as pyramiding. When she walks she is sometimes shaky in her back legs. I don't know if it's lack of exercise or MBD. Hopefully with the right diet and exercise your tort will start using her legs better. Are you giving them calcium? That might help. I had to Help Lana walk the first day that I got her, she was so week. I had to hold the weight of her and kinda push her along. Now she is walking pretty good. I am so glad you have them now and they will be so much happier with you :) As far as the hay, they probably have never had hay. What you are doing is great, mixing it in other food. Hopefully you can get them eating it before winter (helps on the food bill) Good luck and keep us up-dated on the progress.
 

Yvonne G

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Hi Yvie:

Just be sure to give them calcium-rich foods and maybe even supplement with extra calcium, especially for Kona. From what you are describing, she is suffering from MBD. She will be able to use her back legs better as she gets more calcium into those bones. You may have to have a vet Dremmel her back shell to give her more room in the back end.

Good luck with your new charges. They are much better off now.
 

Wirewehear

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Thank you Mike, ladies ....
I'll start reading up on MBD. I think I did read something on that on a tortie "diet" page. I have a good reptile vet I went to once. I fully intended to take Kona in because thought maybe a blood panel should be done.
I have calcium powder supplement with D3. I was afraid to give it to her because I read somewhere that if they have enough sunshine the D3 would be too much and that causes a whole other set of issues. Everything I saw at the pet store had D3 as well. But thinking on it ... she's only had proper sunlight for a week so dont think the extra D3 will hurt at this point. The vet has a syrup type of calcium supplement that I will get for her.
Was listening to and watching that clicking/popping in her back-end. Could be knees or hips even. It happens with every step when the rear legs 'push' out. (kinda sounds like my own knees when I stand up from a squat position) When I hold her up and move her legs, it doesnt pop. But I'll start her on the calcium in the morning. Glucosamine wouldnt be good, would it?
Good idea about dremeling the shell, Yvonne .... I actually did think about that. Not doing it myself of course, lol, but figured the vet would suggest something like that. He is that kind of guy. :)
I'm glad you all dont think they look so bad. I did see some photos of severe pyramiding ... poor things. But I do feel a better about it now. Except I wish Kona was a little better off ... but she certainly doesnt seem to be in any distress.
I made a couple hidey spots for them. Kona likes a wooden chest that I cut an entry into. I put some of the bermuda hay in there so she could feel like she was burrowing. Is that okay? .... would breathing the dust cause any respiratory problems?
I found a spot that Moe started digging out. I dug out a corner nearby that is cinder blocked and topped it with plywood, then filled his digging spot with rock. So far he hasnt bothered going back to that area so dont know if he will like it yet. I have a couple of other spots I want to make "huts" out of, then its time to work on their heated winter quarters. I read on one site that they need to stay in temps not below 70 degrees, then another said not below 60. Which one is more accurate? We are having a cool summer (meaning it hasnt hit over 115 so far) and have had it as low as 67 degrees. He seemed comfortable with it.
Thanks everyone .... you all are going to be saviors for these 2.
 

Laura

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LUCKY torts! what a great yard.. post some more pics of thier undersides and they can be sexed for you..
calcium and excersise will help her a lot.. if the other one keeps picking on her.. you might need to seperate them..
The bigger they are, the cooler they can stand as long as they can heat up during the day 70.. cooler at night is ok. not wet and cool tho.. for winter Id prepare a hut or two, that has a heat source.
Have fun!!!
post pics of your desert torts too!
 

Wirewehear

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post some more pics of thier undersides and they can be sexed for you..

Will do!
+++++++++++++

calcium and excersise will help her a lot.. if the other one keeps picking on her.. you might need to seperate them..

So far I havent seen a single instance of aggression. Lets hope it stays that way.
 
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