Under gravel filters?

[Moozillion]

Can anyone tell me why under gravel filters seem to have fallen out of favor?

 

[wellington]

Because they are no good. It sucks the crap under the plates that then build up toxins and starts killing fish. Then eventually, the whole tank needs to be emptied to get the gunk cleaned out from under the plates. Don't use them. I stopped using them over 30 years ago when I kept having fish die. A friend of mine told me to remove the under gravel filter. I did and omg, lots of fishes lives were saved.

 

[Tom]

I can't because they are still a very effective method for many situations. I used them side by side with all the latest gizmos, gadgets and fads, and they outperformed everything else by a large margin.

I had the occasion to set up an entire fish room, around 100 tanks, using whatever filtration methods I chose. I chose to try banks of all the various things that were available at the time. Canisters, back hangers, bio-wheels, etc. The U/G filters provided the cleanest, clearest water by far. They worked best in combination with a good mechanical filter. My usual strategy is a U/G filter with powerheads, and a back hanger for some mechanical filtration to keep the gravel cleaner for longer. Water changes every 3-4 weeks with a gravel vac keeps things running clean and trouble free.

I don't know why they've fallen out of favor, because they work very well when used correctly and in the right situation.

 

[Tom]

Because they are no good. It sucks the crap under the plates that then build up toxins and starts killing fish. Then eventually, the whole tank needs to be emptied to get the gunk cleaned out from under the plates. Don't use them. I stopped using them over 30 years ago when I kept having fish die. A friend of mine told me to remove the under gravel filter. I did and omg, lots of fishes lives were saved.

Did you use a gravel vac for water changes? Did you run an additional mechanical filter of some sort with your UG filters?

I've been using UG filters since the mid 80's and I've had the exact opposite results that you've had. Interesting. I think we've both set up and run 100's of tanks of all types, given our jobs. How curious that two people with such similar experience levels could be so opposite in their results and impressions.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Have either of you used an undergravel filter as a return for a cannister filter?
Or any other reverse flow situation?
I stopped using them because of the maintenance required. In fact, only one of my tanks even have gravel in it.
Gravel doesn't need vacuuming if it doesn't exist and I'm using cannister with above water level returns through spray bars and a lot of 50% water changes in all of my remaining tanks.

 

[wellington]

Did you use a gravel vac for water changes? Did you run an additional mechanical filter of some sort with your UG filters?

I've been using UG filters since the mid 80's and I've had the exact opposite results that you've had. Interesting. I think we've both set up and run 100's of tanks of all types, given our jobs. How curious that two people with such similar experience levels could be so opposite in their results and impressions.

I used the python that attaches to the sink faucet. We don't use UG filters in our store I work either. I discourage everyone that I know that has aquariums not to use them. I have done marine, cichlids, fresh and goldfish. Ever since I stopped using them many moons ago, I have been able to keep fish with way less loss. Back in the day when I used them, I had used canister and those cheap hang on filters. I don't have an aquarium for fish anymore. However, I now only use wet/dry filters.
I was amazed at the build up under those things. No wonder fish died. It wasn't an instant kill of every fish. I would slowly lose them.

 

[Tom]

I used the python that attaches to the sink faucet. We don't use UG filters in our store I work either. I discourage everyone that I know that has aquariums not to use them. I have done marine, cichlids, fresh and goldfish. Ever since I stopped using them many moons ago, I have been able to keep fish with way less loss. Back in the day when I used them, I had used canister and those cheap hang on filters. I don't have an aquarium for fish anymore. However, I now only use wet/dry filters.
I was amazed at the build up under those things. No wonder fish died. It wasn't an instant kill of every fish. I would slowly lose them.

Any idea why my results would be the opposite? I had fish live and breed for years with my U/G filters. Perfect water quality with every test month after month, year after year. In my stores, where I managed the fish rooms, my best, healthiest tanks all had the U/G filters. Obviously a store will be a much harder test with large volumes of fish coming and going all the time and so many variables to consider, but I had the same results in my stable home aquariums that I had in my pet store fish tanks.

I never used those Python vacs. I saw that you hooked them up to the tap. Did they shoot tap water directly into the tanks? Pardon my ignorance, I just never used those so I don't know how they worked. I used standard Lee 9 or 10" gravel vacs and the kept everything under the plates clean and flowing freely. Maybe this is the step that kept mine going strong for years while, yours got worse and worse over time?

Hmm… Interesting.

 

[wellington]

Any idea why my results would be the opposite? I had fish live and breed for years with my U/G filters. Perfect water quality with every test month after month, year after year. In my stores, where I managed the fish rooms, my best, healthiest tanks all had the U/G filters. Obviously a store will be a much harder test with large volumes of fish coming and going all the time and so many variables to consider, but I had the same results in my stable home aquariums that I had in my pet store fish tanks.

I never used those Python vacs. I saw that you hooked them up to the tap. Did they shoot tap water directly into the tanks? Pardon my ignorance, I just never used those so I don't know how they worked. I used standard Lee 9 or 10" gravel vacs and the kept everything under the plates clean and flowing freely. Maybe this is the step that kept mine going strong for years while, yours got worse and worse over time?

Hmm… Interesting.

The pythons has a value and in one position your faucet sucks the dirty water out and then if you push the value up it will fill the tank. If you turn your faucet off, it still sucks the water out but not with much pressure. If you leave the faucet running, it give the suction much more pressure. I have never used the vac you are talking about. I always used the python. Even in the store I work and that's what we use on the aquarium maintenance jobs
I have no idea why it works for you and not me. It is weird. Possibly the type of UG we each had and the grate pattern on it? Did you have power heads? Mine only used an air pump. The power head ones work much better then the air pump ones. That would make the difference. I just have never bothered with them again since I had such great results without them.

 

[Tom]

The pythons has a value and in one position your faucet sucks the dirty water out and then if you push the value up it will fill the tank. If you turn your faucet off, it still sucks the water out but not with much pressure. If you leave the faucet running, it give the suction much more pressure. I have never used the vac you are talking about. I always used the python. Even in the store I work and that's what we use on the aquarium maintenance jobs
I have no idea why it works for you and not me. It is weird. Possibly the type of UG we each had and the grate pattern on it? Did you have power heads? Mine only used an air pump. The power head ones work much better then the air pump ones. That would make the difference. I just have never bothered with them again since I had such great results without them.

I used power heads on everything 20 gallons, or bigger. So all my 40's, 60's, 100's and 135's. In my stores we had some 10s and 15s on air stones and those worked very well too.

I used this brand. They had a size to fit any tank.
https://www.bigalspets.com/lee-s-un...son+Shopping&gclid=CNTT-8qs5c4CFQimaQod5FgC9w

Here's the gravel vac: http://www.petguys.com/lees-ultra-g...aign=PetGuys&gclid=CMzVjf-s5c4CFQUpaQodTG0AbA
Looks like the marketers added a little nozzle thing on the end. Typical suits creating a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

The only time I didn't use UG filters was for the big South American Cichlids and catfish that tear everything up. I used them for saltwater, African Cichlids, brackish tanks and everything else. The water in my tanks without UG filtration was never as clean looking and required larger and more frequent water changes.

 

[mark1]

i use under gravel filters in all my tanks and 2 of my ponds , using it in addition to external filtration works great , the water stays crystal clear .... i have a stainless mesh door through which i can roughly clean it in the fall , for hibernation, and spring , because the biological filtration hasn't really worked all winter ..... i think they always have worked well , and they still work well .......... that black muck that accumulates under them should be odorless , i think it actually smells surprisingly clean , i've certainly never found it to be toxic to my fish or turtles , or myself when i clean it ..........it's a great easy way to add another biological filter to the system , personally i'd never go without one .

 

[wellington]

I used power heads on everything 20 gallons, or bigger. So all my 40's, 60's, 100's and 135's. In my stores we had some 10s and 15s on air stones and those worked very well too.

I used this brand. They had a size to fit any tank.
https://www.bigalspets.com/lee-s-un...son+Shopping&gclid=CNTT-8qs5c4CFQimaQod5FgC9w

Here's the gravel vac: http://www.petguys.com/lees-ultra-g...aign=PetGuys&gclid=CMzVjf-s5c4CFQUpaQodTG0AbA
Looks like the marketers added a little nozzle thing on the end. Typical suits creating a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

The only time I didn't use UG filters was for the big South American Cichlids and catfish that tear everything up. I used them for saltwater, African Cichlids, brackish tanks and everything else. The water in my tanks without UG filtration was never as clean looking and required larger and more frequent water changes.

It's been many many years, but that under gravel filter looks just like the one I used. Your Vac I think is the same concept as the python. The difference is mine you hook to faucet to start. You're you either suck on it to start it, or fill it up with the tank water to start the suction. I had that years ago until I got the python. The hose of the vac fit the python. I always did monthly water changes on my marine tanks. By weekly on the cichlids and fresh. Weekly on gold fish. I'm thinking the power heads isn't the big difference.

 

[Tom]

Can anyone tell me why under gravel filters seem to have fallen out of favor?

I have heard other people say what Barb said here, but that was never my experience, nor was it the experience of the hundreds of customers I sold them to. I was still in the industry when they started falling out of favor, and from what I could tell it was marketing hype about "new and improved" products and word of mouth from people who feel the way Barb does about them. Some people seem to look at them as something old and archaic, but as I explained before, in my side by side tests in over 100 tanks, the UG filters run with powerheads, in combination with either a canister or back hanger for mechanical filtration simply outperformed every other type of filter on the market. An elaborate wet/dry system with a large sump would likely outperform a simple UG/back hanger system, but those are really two different animals in my view.

Did we answer your question?

 

[Moozillion]

Yes!
Very interesting at the range of experiences with them. I always used UGFs, and they did great for me. I did water changes every 4 weeks. But the last time I had an aquarium was around 1992: it was a 70 gal tall, with live plants and was gorgeous.

I am contemplating setting up a 40 gallon breeder tank as a paludarium sometime in the next 2 years. My dream is to have lots of plants and places for fish to hide so that my mud turtle can live there too. Am playing around with ideas for different combinations of filters, etc. I know a UGF would be inadequate in a turtle tank...unless i also had a canister filter.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

If you're going to use natural sand as a substrate, you can nix the whole U.G. idea all together. Too fine.

 

[Moozillion]

If you're going to use natural sand as a substrate, you can nix the whole U.G. idea all together. Too fine.

Oops! Right you are!!!! Thanks!

 

[mark1]

i raised 5 blandings turtle hatchlings to 3" in a 75 gallon tank with no more than 50 gallons of water in it , i never did anything more than add water in the 7-8 months they were in it .... i moved the turtles outside in the beginning of summer , the tank is still up and running , if i bring them in for the winter it still doesn't need cleaned .....the tank is heavily planted with hornwort , duckweed , and water hyacinth , i pull the water from under the gravel with a canister filter and it's dumped into a tower(trickle filter) before returning to the tank ..

 

[Moozillion]

i raised 5 blandings turtle hatchlings to 3" in a 75 gallon tank with no more than 50 gallons of water in it , i never did anything more than add water in the 7-8 months they were in it .... i moved the turtles outside in the beginning of summer , the tank is still up and running , if i bring them in for the winter it still doesn't need cleaned .....the tank is heavily planted with hornwort , duckweed , and water hyacinth , i pull the water from under the gravel with a canister filter and it's dumped into a tower(trickle filter) before returning to the tank ..

WOW!!!!!

i raised 5 blandings turtle hatchlings to 3" in a 75 gallon tank with no more than 50 gallons of water in it , i never did anything more than add water in the 7-8 months they were in it .... i moved the turtles outside in the beginning of summer , the tank is still up and running , if i bring them in for the winter it still doesn't need cleaned .....the tank is heavily planted with hornwort , duckweed , and water hyacinth , i pull the water from under the gravel with a canister filter and it's dumped into a tower(trickle filter) before returning to the tank ..

So you have a land area for some of the plants? Is this more of a paludarium than a straight aquarium?

 

[Yelloweyed]

@mark1 what is the moss-looking plant in your tank? I like how it makes an 'island.'

 

[mark1]

@mark1 what is the moss-looking plant in your tank? I like how it makes an 'island.'

i'm not sure what kind that is , whatever kind that is native to the northeast , it just grew on a piece of sandstone i put in there to provide a spot to get out the water ...... a moss i know i've used and grew well is irish moss .

 

[mark1]

So you have a land area for some of the plants? Is this more of a paludarium than a straight aquarium?

yes , most of the water is below the gravel , only about 4-5" is above the gravel , there is a piece of sandstone for them to get out the water , which they seldom ever did or do.