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TRUE Bolivian Redfoot

Discussion in 'Redfoot and yellowfoot tortoises' started by Redfoot NERD, May 25, 2016.

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  1. Redfoot NERD

    Redfoot NERD Well-Known Member 10 Year Member!

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    You can count on one hand the number of "TRUE" Bolivian redfoots that are being kept these days.

    This is the second one that is in my collection.. a yellow one.. and believed to be female. Bolivians have a dark plastron ( different than Brazilians ) almost out of the egg. Will get plastron shot ASAP.

    More later...

    [​IMG]

    She has been fed 'too' well by breeder and is bumpy from very rapid growth! Represented as 'Yearling" and already 4.5" SCL

    [​IMG]

    luv that yellow color...

    [​IMG]

    still eating!

    [​IMG]
  2. MPRC

    MPRC Well-Known Member

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    What a chubby bunny. I have one who looks a lot like that.
    Gillian M and Pearly like this.
  3. Redfoot NERD

    Redfoot NERD Well-Known Member 10 Year Member!

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    The TRUE Bolivian has a very dark plastron like my red one here...

    [​IMG]
  4. Anyfoot

    Anyfoot Well-Known Member

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    Very nice. Do you have a photo of your other Bolivian?
  5. Redfoot NERD

    Redfoot NERD Well-Known Member 10 Year Member!

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    The above is from May 2015 .. note the difference vs. the Brazilian.

    Oct. 2008 -

    [​IMG]

    May 2015 ( outside obviously ) .. shows how red she is -

    [​IMG]
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  6. Pearly

    Pearly Well-Known Member

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    Very pretty torts!
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  7. jcaporaletti

    jcaporaletti Member 5 Year Member

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    I think I remember seeing that Bolivian on fauna a while back?
  8. cdmay

    cdmay Well-Known Member 10 Year Member!

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    Yep, there are number of Bolivian/Paraguayan Chaco red-footed tortoise breeders here in the US. So they turn up on Fauna, Kingsnake and elsewhere from time to time. The Bolivians were imported in the 1980s and then the Paraguayan animals in the 1990s. They are essentially the same phenotype although the imported Bolivian tortoises seemed to be a little darker in my experience.
    They are very large and impressive tortoises and some are incredibly beautiful.
    Anyfoot and Pearly like this.
  9. Redfoot NERD

    Redfoot NERD Well-Known Member 10 Year Member!

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    Since I couldn't seem to locate a male for her.. I may have adverised her. I did find ONE .. but I like my "arm & leg" too much!
    Anyfoot likes this.
  10. Gillian M

    Gillian M Well-Known Member

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    Wonderful little torts! GOD bless.:D
  11. Redfoot NERD

    Redfoot NERD Well-Known Member 10 Year Member!

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    Thanks Carl May for the heritage 'update'.. but that doesn't really explain why they are as "rare" as they seem to be - "time-to-time" has proven to be more like "FAR-and-FEW-between"!

    But I'm thinking this one may have a chance of being "beautiful" - although still just 4.25" SCL - right out of the box..

    [​IMG]

    And the plastron [ although quite dark all over ] doesn't have the "marbling" that is so 'common' in the Brazilian -- ( yes Carl I'm sure you've seen exceptions )

    [​IMG]

    Meant to ask... what does phenotype mean?
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  12. N2TORTS

    N2TORTS Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    Well Terry ....this is an interesting thread. What are the babies I received from you in 2010? I kept one of them and has been with the Hypo group since then. Finally mature....have produced some amazing Hets. Now ....if not being silly and the best quickest explanation here is a good explanation from the net about Phenotypes.


    Phenotype, all the observable characteristics of an organism that result from the interaction of its genotype (total genetic inheritance) with the environment. Examples of observable characteristics include behavior, biochemical properties, color, shape, and size. The phenotype may change constantly throughout the life of an individual because of environmental changes and the physiological and morphological changes associated with aging. Different environments can influence the development of inherited traits (as size, for example, is affected by available food supply) and alter expression by similar genotypes (for example, twins maturing in dissimilar families). In nature, the influence of the environment forms the basis of natural selection, which initially works on individuals, favoring the survival of those organisms with phenotypes best suited to their current environments. The survival advantage conferred to individuals exhibiting such phenotypes enables those individuals to reproduce with relatively high rates of success and thereby pass on the successful genotypes to subsequent generations. The interplay between genotype and phenotype is remarkably complex, however. For example, all inherited possibilities in the genotype are not expressed in the phenotype, because some are the result of latent, recessive, or inhibited genes.

    http://www.britannica.com/science/heredity-genetics#ref502755
  13. cdmay

    cdmay Well-Known Member 10 Year Member!

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    Pretty sure NERD's head just exploded after reading the above.

    Terry, N2TORTS above explanation is of course correct. But for our interest in tortoises, a phenotype would represent the 'typical' observable characteristics of a certain distinct and identifiable group of animals from a known location. These characteristics would be consistent within the population and although variable to a certain degree, would tend to breed true within the captive setting as long as members from this same group where included within the breeding colony.

    As for Bolivian (and Paraguayan) red-footed tortoises having a mostly dark plastron (except for the neonatal scute centers) I agree with you Terry. They do seem to have that characteristic.
    whisper, Yelloweyed and Anyfoot like this.
  14. Anyfoot

    Anyfoot Well-Known Member

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    Someone is going to have to try and explain to me where the boundaries of phenotype are please.

    Some male redfooted species have the constricted waist and some don't depending on locality. Is this classed as different phenotype.

    If I had a male and female with the exact same head scale pattern, and they produced 4 offspring, 3 with the exact same head scale pattern as the parents, but the 4th one was a different pattern. Is the 4th classed as a different phenotype.
    Or am I way of track of the understanding of phenotype.
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  15. Redfoot NERD

    Redfoot NERD Well-Known Member 10 Year Member!

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    Carl.. I don't waste my time [ reading that.. what minute % of those here really care.. let alone understand it??? ] on those that need to sound like they're "all-knowing" and need the attention. You explained it simple enough - very similar looks within a region.. that's all I needed. Thank YOU sir.

    Yeah Carl... that dark 'non-marbled' plastron is very unique.

    Let's credit a member from some years back.. went by elegans ( D. Beard ).. from late 2008..

    One of his breeder males that I recall he acquired in the '80's.. next to an 18" cinder block -

    [​IMG]

    And that ( phenotype ) virtual ( in comparison ) non-wasp waist-line plastron of "Northern ones" ..

    [​IMG]
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  16. Redfoot NERD

    Redfoot NERD Well-Known Member 10 Year Member!

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    No Craig.. you are "over-thinking" as usual -- you are among a large group that is trying to make this STUDY .. a science. Too many years of "cross-breeding" will always create a ( mutt ) different one every once in awhile!

    Plus the extreme concave plastron and constricted waist-line usually doesn't show until much older tortoises too. But the extreme Southern seldom show that waist-line.

    Of the hundreds of hatchlings that a few of us have hatched in our particular group.. "MOST" are similar.. and I doubt any of us really question where the 'odd' one came from. Not speaking for everyone of course...
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  17. Redfoot NERD

    Redfoot NERD Well-Known Member 10 Year Member!

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    In case that was mis-understood -- the "Northern" = Brazil and especially North of the Amazon river.. have the extreme waist-line in older males.

    Cross-breeding in the wild.. and in captivity enhances the possibility I'm sure.

    The example above was a full mature male.. possibly 30-40+ years old .. don't kow for sure.

    So that is a phenotype Anyfoot.....
  18. N2TORTS

    N2TORTS Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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  19. cdmay

    cdmay Well-Known Member 10 Year Member!

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    N2TORTS explanation of phenotype was a good one and not inaccurate in any way. Technical, but right.

    The Bolivian and Paraguayan Chaco red-footed tortoises do typically have a mostly dark plastron...or at least a large central 'blob' like Doug Beard's male.
    A friend of mine down here was just given a large adult female from another mutual friend. That female has a plastron pattern that is similar to Dougs male. But I've also seen many that were completely dark brown or black, or that only have the light centered scutes. And then sometimes they are mostly yellow so the plastron pattern seems to have some variability within this group.

    But as N2TORTS has demonstrated in his photo, the 'cherry-head' types from Brazil can also have an almost entirely black plastron. In fact, many of my larger females have plastrons that became black as they aged even though as juveniles their plastrons were marbled to one degree or another.

    As you mentioned, there can be exceptions in every population. So what you want to do is examine a number of characteristics, not just one.

    BTW, Doug Beard is a great guy and that male of his that you shared the photo of is simply incredible!
    N2TORTS likes this.
  20. Redfoot NERD

    Redfoot NERD Well-Known Member 10 Year Member!

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    what does the top side look like Jeff?

    that male has the looks of a Bolivian for sure... or has he become melanistic.. or whatever you call it when most colors fade to dark and almost colorless?
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2016
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