torts (argument about humidity for Russians)

wellington

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Lol... this is the difference between having a real conversation in person and writing a conversation. We can’t read attitude and we misunderstand accents. I said we because I mean myself as well. When I saw the all caps I thought he was trying to get a point across or attitude as well. But when someone said he was 14 I then went back and read his post again. My kids always write in Caps and I tell them as well people take it in a negative way. But , unlike others I don’t think he was “telling lies” to mislead people. He most likely heard that info and was just passing it on trying to help someone. And what he said technically was not incorrect. I have read info on here from experts that weren’t totally true but I don’t think they were telling a lie. It’s what they believe. We learn everyday what we thought was true is really not. Just like Brain ( the snake ) guy said: he’s been breeding for 29 yrs things they did yrs ago like UVB they now realize was wrong. I was so frustrated when I first started rescue turtles and tortoise because I would read this and that and this person says this and that person says no. I have even had vets tell me things that turned out to not be true. So sorry if I came across that I was having an attitude I just felt bad when I read he was 14.
No one I don't believe called him a liar.
 

Tammie

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A member wrote to me saying he was lying because they thought he is a troll. Sorry if that comment was confusing. They do not believe he is lying if he is a true 14 yr old member...
 

pillow

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i am done with this forum this was a very bad experience. i am sorry for the false info and caps. you guys have not helped me at all

I really doubt you are 14, matter a fact, your probably 7- 10 from your attitude and the way you think also the way you type. considering your from the USA you should have a Mother's tongue... unless you're a 7-year-old ;)

and btw, it's still not too late to say sorry :<3:
if you feel frustrated then talk about it, this forum is for tortoises True, but... we can talk about our differences if things are going to go downhill to this point.

so tell me. is it

A) you regret what you said and feel sorry and want to start a new page?
or
B) you're going to leave with a Rude/childish attitude?
 

Taylor T.

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Wait, you are saying you found information on this forum that said humidity caused rashes on Russians? I'm not sure if I entirely believe you. Please provide a link to the page that stated this.
 

JoesMum

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@Tort dude

The sticky care sheets pinned at the top of each species forum are most up to date. They are what we use to illustrate best practice and are there for tried and tested reasons. Some are written by Tom, some by Hemanni Chris and some by other very experienced people have given up time to write these. You’ll find one from me somewhere on accommodating a tort outdoors in a colder climate like the UK. They have been written because out in the wider world there is a vast amount of outdated care information still in circulation.... on the internet, from pet stores and, sadly, from some breeders and vets too. The TFO community is working very hard to get the right information out there.

Regardless of your age or your intentions when posting, I hope you will stay and propose a peace settlement.

1. You agree not to rant at people saying things are dangerous - it’s not how we do it. We try to educate people, not shout them down, even when they’re very wrong indeed.

2. If you do have evidence from this forum about raising humidity that contradicts what the most up to date understanding of correct care is then please post links. We can then see what you’re talking about, but reserve the right not to agree with it.

3. Some others in this thread are getting a little scratchy themselves. Deep breaths everyone; two wrongs don’t make a right. We need to draw a line under this.

We have all made mistakes and learned from them. Hopefully you too have learned from mistakes and will take the time to read up a little more and learn from us and with us.
 

Tammie

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Wait, you are saying you found information on this forum that said humidity caused rashes on Russians? I'm not sure if I entirely believe you. Please provide a link to the page that stated this.
Sorry Taylor I thought you posted this to me. I’m still learning this forum layout. But I did pull this up from Reptile MD: Skin and shell infections are caused by either bacteria or fungi. When reptiles live in dirty or excessively humid environments, microorganisms thrive, reproduce, and can overwhelm the pet’s immune system, which also may be weakened by poor nutrition. If the reptile’s skin or shell is cut or scratched, an infection is even more likely to develop.
A rash “technically “ is the start of any infection or irritation on the skin. They can get a rash from rubbing on a hide.
I think the “rash” statement has been overblown. Because “technically “ he is correct. The issue with Russian is they come over here as adults. They are not acclimated to living in higher humidity levels. I have two adult Russians and live in Florida. I slowly acclimated them to living out door year round. I got them from a person living in Florida and they were very sick from skin, shell, RI, and lethargic. I kept them inside for 3 mos with low humidity and would take them out starting 1 hr at a time and increased over 6 mos. if they are not given the ability to dig and adjust their humidity/ heat or cold temps one of the first things you will notice can be them rubbing their legs on something. If you look closely you may see dryness or irritation around the scales. That is the definition of a rash. An irritation of the skin or scales. That abrasion on the skin or scale could lead to fungus or bacteria infection. But the term “rash” is really to simplistic term to use given anything can cause it.
 

Taylor T.

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Sorry Taylor I thought you posted this to me. I’m still learning this forum layout. But I did pull this up from Reptile MD: Skin and shell infections are caused by either bacteria or fungi. When reptiles live in dirty or excessively humid environments, microorganisms thrive, reproduce, and can overwhelm the pet’s immune system, which also may be weakened by poor nutrition. If the reptile’s skin or shell is cut or scratched, an infection is even more likely to develop.
A rash “technically “ is the start of any infection or irritation on the skin. They can get a rash from rubbing on a hide.
I think the “rash” statement has been overblown. Because “technically “ he is correct. The issue with Russian is they come over here as adults. They are not acclimated to living in higher humidity levels. I have two adult Russians and live in Florida. I slowly acclimated them to living out door year round. I got them from a person living in Florida and they were very sick from skin, shell, RI, and lethargic. I kept them inside for 3 mos with low humidity and would take them out starting 1 hr at a time and increased over 6 mos. if they are not given the ability to dig and adjust their humidity/ heat or cold temps one of the first things you will notice can be them rubbing their legs on something. If you look closely you may see dryness or irritation around the scales. That is the definition of a rash. An irritation of the skin or scales. That abrasion on the skin or scale could lead to fungus or bacteria infection. But the term “rash” is really to simplistic term to use given anything can cause it.
I was talking to the OP. He said "i got this info on this forum" and I was just wondering where it was coming from. Sorry for the confusion.
 

Tom

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Sorry Taylor I thought you posted this to me. I’m still learning this forum layout. But I did pull this up from Reptile MD: Skin and shell infections are caused by either bacteria or fungi. When reptiles live in dirty or excessively humid environments, microorganisms thrive, reproduce, and can overwhelm the pet’s immune system, which also may be weakened by poor nutrition. If the reptile’s skin or shell is cut or scratched, an infection is even more likely to develop.
A rash “technically “ is the start of any infection or irritation on the skin. They can get a rash from rubbing on a hide.
I think the “rash” statement has been overblown. Because “technically “ he is correct. The issue with Russian is they come over here as adults. They are not acclimated to living in higher humidity levels. I have two adult Russians and live in Florida. I slowly acclimated them to living out door year round. I got them from a person living in Florida and they were very sick from skin, shell, RI, and lethargic. I kept them inside for 3 mos with low humidity and would take them out starting 1 hr at a time and increased over 6 mos. if they are not given the ability to dig and adjust their humidity/ heat or cold temps one of the first things you will notice can be them rubbing their legs on something. If you look closely you may see dryness or irritation around the scales. That is the definition of a rash. An irritation of the skin or scales. That abrasion on the skin or scale could lead to fungus or bacteria infection. But the term “rash” is really to simplistic term to use given anything can cause it.

At issue here is exactly how much humidity we are talking about, and how and where the tortoise is set up.

The primary issue is that most people set up russian tortoises bone dry, on dry substrate and under a hot desiccating lamp. Humidity in these "beef jerky makers" is unnaturally low and often in the single digits. When most of us talk about keeping russians with humidity, we are talking about moderate humidity. I recommend 50-70% ambient humidity, but with deep damp substrate so the tortoise can dig down and find more humidity, and with a humid hide offered. There are some people who have been recommending 80% humidity with 80 degree night temps, and I don't agree with that for russian tortoises. Great for sulcatas, stars and leopards, but I like russians to cool into the 60s at night and have humidity under 80%. The point still stands that many people in FL, LA, and Southeast TX keep russians outdoors in your extremely humid climate and have no issues with rashes.

The OP made a blanket statement to not house russians with humidity, and this incorrect advice could cost baby russian tortoises their lives, and cause others to grow up pyramided. I've done it in the past with humidity that was too low, and my russians pyramided. They "need" some humidity if people want them to grow normally and remain healthy.

I also don't want to attack a kid, but any person, teenager or adult, that offers advice that is harmful to tortoises needs to be shut down ASAP. I gave the kid a lot more patience and tact than I would have given an adult doing the same thing. People, including teenagers, should not be giving advice on things they clearly know nothing about because they watched a Kamp Kenan video. Advice given on this forum should come from first hand experience doing whatever is being recommended, or recommend against.
 

Tammie

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Absolutely totally agree with everything you stated.
BTW, when I first started with reptiles I had a couple hatchling die within 1 mos. That “hatchling failure syndrome “ or poor breeder failure syndrome . I started researching and researching pulling my hair out to understand what was happening and why some breeders were “ok” with this. I ran across your post about this issue and with pyramiding. I was so excited to finally read an intelligent observation and a determined voice to stop the needless slow deaths of these hatchlings and stop excepting that a little pyramiding is ok. I used your outline and methods to a tee. So far so good. Well actually so far so GREAT! I started growing all my own food for my tortoises.
I have 2 sulcata . one given to me at 1 yr old with some pyramiding, one I found at a reptile rescue place I was volunteering at. I found him inside a deep burrow of a lg adult male sulcata. Possibly 3 weeks old. He’s now about a year. No pyramiding at all but he is also on the smaller side I think. I weight them once a week and his wt. gain is steady but slow. Yellow foot that was 2 yrs old. Moderate pyramiding with wide set back legs and would walk on the knees and drag the back plastron on the ground. She is 3 1/2 now pyramiding seems to have stopped but not improved. She walks up right on back legs now but not for long distance. Not sure if it’s MBD or if she was raised for two yrs in a small container or unnatural substrate. I have a lepord, elongated, brown mountain, pancake, all do great. So thank you for all the years of frustration, research and education.
 
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wellington

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Sorry Taylor I thought you posted this to me. I’m still learning this forum layout. But I did pull this up from Reptile MD: Skin and shell infections are caused by either bacteria or fungi. When reptiles live in dirty or excessively humid environments, microorganisms thrive, reproduce, and can overwhelm the pet’s immune system, which also may be weakened by poor nutrition. If the reptile’s skin or shell is cut or scratched, an infection is even more likely to develop.
A rash “technically “ is the start of any infection or irritation on the skin. They can get a rash from rubbing on a hide.
I think the “rash” statement has been overblown. Because “technically “ he is correct. The issue with Russian is they come over here as adults. They are not acclimated to living in higher humidity levels. I have two adult Russians and live in Florida. I slowly acclimated them to living out door year round. I got them from a person living in Florida and they were very sick from skin, shell, RI, and lethargic. I kept them inside for 3 mos with low humidity and would take them out starting 1 hr at a time and increased over 6 mos. if they are not given the ability to dig and adjust their humidity/ heat or cold temps one of the first things you will notice can be them rubbing their legs on something. If you look closely you may see dryness or irritation around the scales. That is the definition of a rash. An irritation of the skin or scales. That abrasion on the skin or scale could lead to fungus or bacteria infection. But the term “rash” is really to simplistic term to use given anything can cause it.
Technically he isn't correct. Your Russians had they been healthy to begin with wouldn't have a problem with the humidity. Healthy animals won't have problems with humidity. Unhealthy possibly could, but it's most likely other causes then the humidity. Couple times now your stating this Op statements to be correct, when they are not. Your two sickly Russians are not proof that humidity played a part in any thing, specially compared to Toms many humid raised tortoises.
Not sure what part of the OP statement he thinks he got from this forum, but info like your stating, is what can lead people wrong when a clearer more explained statement isn't made.
Saying something like its your opinion that humidity can cause rashes, but a humid environment is still need to raise a smooth healthy tortoise, might be something to add to your statements.
When I miss speak/write wrong info, I always go back to correct it, if I know about it, so people won't happen on just my writings and do something wrong. Sometimes people will just pop in and research a little and then pop out. We can control what threads/posts they read. If they pick just a couple, and they have a lot of incorrect info, that's what they are leaving with.
 
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Tort dude

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I really doubt you are 14, matter a fact, your probably 7- 10 from your attitude and the way you think also the way you type. considering your from the USA you should have a Mother's tongue... unless you're a 7-year-old ;)

and btw, it's still not too late to say sorry :<3:
if you feel frustrated then talk about it, this forum is for tortoises True, but... we can talk about our differences if things are going to go downhill to this point.

so tell me. is it

A) you regret what you said and feel sorry and want to start a new page?
or
B) you're going to leave with a Rude/childish attitude?
This is the Mom of the 14 year old. He will be leaving this forum because he is no longer allowed permission to be on it. I do want to thank those of you who were kind and mature in your answers and responses. This experience has been a teaching opportunity for us, and he has a lot to learn. I’m sorry to those of you that he offended. Thanks again for those that were kind and helpful. Best of luck to you all.
 

Tammie

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I’m so sorry to hear that but I understand your concerns. Please tell him not to give up on his passions. There are many youtube videos and books out there for him to research and learn more.
FYI, his statement that humidity can cause a rash is absolutely TRUE! Some members seem to be very put out by that statement and I’m really not sure why. And I know I will get members writing me telling me I’m wrong . That’s ok because they can call any vet any Dr. any true expert and they will tell them yes humidity can cause a rash. But I think what they want is a more expanded statement so someone doesn’t mistakenly stop providing humidity to their tortoise and cause unnecessary harm. So tortoises do need humidity, clean environment, healthy food and exercise. It’s how much humidity is needed. And there is great debate on that as well.
This needs to be a lesson learned for everyone involved in this tread because I will tell you this the long term members on here that have been harsh and not encouraging need to “ step back” and read people’s post with a more positive attitude and have a conversation not a “lecture.”
In closing I would like to say to your son I’m sorry if I said anything that discouraged you in anyway or hurt your feelings.
Spend time reading the post and then researching what you read and when you feel better and your mom approves come back and tell us what you learned. I will be looking forward to hearing it...
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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Please don’t forget all vets didn’t get to the top of their class . And not all vets know torts , they can be great with cats , dogs , and Evan birds ! But they have to work hard to be great with torts !
 

Tammie

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Technically he isn't correct. Your Russians had they been healthy to begin with wouldn't have a problem with the humidity. Healthy animals won't have problems with humidity. Unhealthy possibly could, but it's most likely other causes then the humidity. Couple times now your stating this Op statements to be correct, when they are not. Your two sickly Russians are not proof that humidity played a part in any thing, specially compared to Toms many humid raised tortoises.
Not sure what part of the OP statement he thinks he got from this forum, but info like your stating, is what can lead people wrong when a clearer more explained statement isn't made.
Saying something like its your opinion that humidity can cause rashes, but a humid environment is still need to raise a smooth healthy tortoise, might be something to add to your statements.
When I miss speak/write wrong info, I always go back to correct it, if I know about it, so people won't happen on just my writings and do something wrong. Sometimes people will just pop in and research a little and then pop out. We can control what threads/posts they read. If they pick just a couple, and they have a lot of incorrect info, that's what they are leaving with.
@wellington i respect your opinion but I never said my Russians were proof that humidity causes a rash. I was just telling a story about my tortoise and humidity.
Fact: humidity can cause a rash. His statement was correct. I can name a Trillin things that cause a rash. That’s why I said “technically “ he is correct.
Let me see if I can put it in another way.
Can clipping your toenails kill you. Yes it can. But does that mean you need to stop clipping your toenails. No.
Everyone keeps saying he should have said how much humidity or provided proof. He’s 14 maybe someone should have asked him nicely to explain what he means in greater detail.
It really feels like some people on here just want to debate instead of having a dialogue. Or some are frustrated .
I feel like this “rash” issue is so over the top.
Let’s just agree to disagree about the rash thing.
 

Tammie

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Please don’t forget all vets didn’t get to the top of their class . And not all vets know torts , they can be great with cats , dogs , and Evan birds ! But they have to work hard to be great with torts !
Lol... I do have to agree on that statement but hopefully even the dullest scalpel in the class knows a rash is just an irritation caused by anything. It’s kinda like knowing: if you ain’t breathing ; nothing else really matters...
 

wellington

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@wellington i respect your opinion but I never said my Russians were proof that humidity causes a rash. I was just telling a story about my tortoise and humidity.
Fact: humidity can cause a rash. His statement was correct. I can name a Trillin things that cause a rash. That’s why I said “technically “ he is correct.
Let me see if I can put it in another way.
Can clipping your toenails kill you. Yes it can. But does that mean you need to stop clipping your toenails. No.
Everyone keeps saying he should have said how much humidity or provided proof. He’s 14 maybe someone should have asked him nicely to explain what he means in greater detail.
It really feels like some people on here just want to debate instead of having a dialogue. Or some are frustrated .
I feel like this “rash” issue is so over the top.
Let’s just agree to disagree about the rash thing.
We will have too. I totally don't agree with you. Not with humidity, causing a rash on a tortoise. Other animals or humans yes. Also don't agree that he was correct. His statement was damaging both about rash and keys not forget he included eyes and nose. Also don't agree with you recommending him to do research within books or YouTube. Yes, some of the YouTube vids have correct info, most do not. Books, well, most if not all are old bad outdated info.
For the older members stepping back and reconsidering what or how we respond, or however you worded it. Well, be a member for as long as some of us and you too will get tired of the same bad info getting said by newer members that have no or very little experience. Many members have been battling the bad info for years. Believe me, I think I was very nice to the op, who like I said, I didn't know was a kid until another member stated so.
With all the tortoises on here, living in a higher humidity, I can't say I remember any having a problem with a rash caused by the humidity. Not that it's not possible, there's always the odd situation, but not where it should be stated in any such way that would or could scare newbies into not wanting to add it.
As for the OP, hopefully his parents will realize he was wrong in the way he presented himself and his thread. Help him to learn a better approach and at the minimum, let him continue reading the forums info.
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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We will have too. I totally don't agree with you. Not with humidity, causing a rash on a tortoise. Other animals or humans yes. Also don't agree that he was correct. His statement was damaging both about rash and keys not forget he included eyes and nose. Also don't agree with you recommending him to do research within books or YouTube. Yes, some of the YouTube vids have correct info, most do not. Books, well, most if not all are old bad outdated info.
For the older members stepping back and reconsidering what or how we respond, or however you worded it. Well, be a member for as long as some of us and you too will get tired of the same bad info getting said by newer members that have no or very little experience. Many members have been battling the bad info for years. Believe me, I think I was very nice to the op, who like I said, I didn't know was a kid until another member stated so.
With all the tortoises on here, living in a higher humidity, I can't say I remember any having a problem with a rash caused by the humidity. Not that it's not possible, there's always the odd situation, but not where it should be stated in any such way that would or could scare newbies into not wanting to add it.
As for the OP, hopefully his parents will realize he was wrong in the way he presented himself and his thread. Help him to learn a better approach and at the minimum, let him continue reading the forums info.

I liked everything you said Evan the the part about a 14 year old learning how to talk to adults and his elders !!! Thank you !
 

Tammie

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We will have too. I totally don't agree with you. Not with humidity, causing a rash on a tortoise. Other animals or humans yes. Also don't agree that he was correct. His statement was damaging both about rash and keys not forget he included eyes and nose. Also don't agree with you recommending him to do research within books or YouTube. Yes, some of the YouTube vids have correct info, most do not. Books, well, most if not all are old bad outdated info.
For the older members stepping back and reconsidering what or how we respond, or however you worded it. Well, be a member for as long as some of us and you too will get tired of the same bad info getting said by newer members that have no or very little experience. Many members have been battling the bad info for years. Believe me, I think I was very nice to the op, who like I said, I didn't know was a kid until another member stated so.
With all the tortoises on here, living in a higher humidity, I can't say I remember any having a problem with a rash caused by the humidity. Not that it's not possible, there's always the odd situation, but not where it should be stated in any such way that would or could scare newbies into not wanting to add it.
As for the OP, hopefully his parents will realize he was wrong in the way he presented himself and his thread. Help him to learn a better approach and at the minimum, let him continue reading the forums info.
Wow no books no videos. Where would you like him to get his information? Not on here from you guys. He made a comment that you guys have blown so out of proportion my head is spinning. If someone stopped giving their tortoise humidity because one person said
We will have too. I totally don't agree with you. Not with humidity, causing a rash on a tortoise. Other animals or humans yes. Also don't agree that he was correct. His statement was damaging both about rash and keys not forget he included eyes and nose. Also don't agree with you recommending him to do research within books or YouTube. Yes, some of the YouTube vids have correct info, most do not. Books, well, most if not all are old bad outdated info.
For the older members stepping back and reconsidering what or how we respond, or however you worded it. Well, be a member for as long as some of us and you too will get tired of the same bad info getting said by newer members that have no or very little experience. Many members have been battling the bad info for years. Believe me, I think I was very nice to the op, who like I said, I didn't know was a kid until another member stated so.
With all the tortoises on here, living in a higher humidity, I can't say I remember any having a problem with a rash caused by the humidity. Not that it's not possible, there's always the odd situation, but not where it should be stated in any such way that would or could scare newbies into not wanting to add it.
As for the OP, hopefully his parents will realize he was wrong in the way he presented himself and his thread. Help him to learn a better approach and at the minimum, let him continue reading the forums info.
We will have too. I totally don't agree with you. Not with humidity, causing a rash on a tortoise. Other animals or humans yes. Also don't agree that he was correct. His statement was damaging both about rash and keys not forget he included eyes and nose. Also don't agree with you recommending him to do research within books or YouTube. Yes, some of the YouTube vids have correct info, most do not. Books, well, most if not all are old bad outdated info.
For the older members stepping back and reconsidering what or how we respond, or however you worded it. Well, be a member for as long as some of us and you too will get tired of the same bad info getting said by newer members that have no or very little experience. Many members have been battling the bad info for years. Believe me, I think I was very nice to the op, who like I said, I didn't know was a kid until another member stated so.
With all the tortoises on here, living in a higher humidity, I can't say I remember any having a problem with a rash caused by the humidity. Not that it's not possible, there's always the odd situation, but not where it should be stated in any such way that would or could scare newbies into not wanting to add it.
As for the OP, hopefully his parents will realize he was wrong in the way he presented himself and his thread. Help him to learn a better approach and at the minimum, let him continue reading the forums info.
Wow! Really, no books no youtube! Where , pray tell, would you like for him to get his knowledge? I have to say I’m very disappointed in this forum. I really believed you guys were forward thinkers ; believing that even experts ( as members on here like to call themselves) we’re students for life... no need to comment back. I’ve heard you loud and clear. It’s a shame I could have learn a lot from this forum and this forum could have learned a lot from us... I can’t continue with a group of people that believes your way is the only way. And you did when you said you don’t agree with me he should read books and watch videos. And Tom liked your post. I can’t tell you how shocked and disappointed I’m am in the attitude of the members on this forum. Quote to live by:
 

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