Tortoise with worms - panacur not working anymore

[biochemnerd808]

I need some expert advice. One of the torts I rescued from a bad situation had a really bad case of worms (pooping out solid lumps of wriggling worms).
After talking to our vet, we treated with 2 doses of panacur (fenbendazole) at proper dosage 2 weeks apart. We are now 14 days from the second treatment, and he still has enough worms in his feces to be seen with the naked eye - and they are wiggling, not dead.

Our vet suggested we treat with a third dose of panacur. Is there any other tort-safe treatment against worms? I am worried that the worms might have become resistant to fenbendazole and need to be hit with something else. I know that ivermectin is deadly for tortoises.

The fenbendazole definitely killed a lot of the worms - many dead worms in Mo's poop for about a week after the treatment. Clearly he still have some live ones, though.

Any suggestions?

 

[Laura]

they wouldnt be resistant after 2 doses... he is just loaded and needs another dose...change the substrate as well..

 

[Benjamin]

A few years back under the guidance from my vet I used(if memory serves me well) Droncit, may have been called Droncit 2. It worked pretty well with two doses. Keep in mind that worms are part of the normal gut flora, though in reasonable numbers.

 

[EricIvins]

Your missing alot of information here. What Parasites have been identified? Please tell me that was the first thing done........

 

[biochemnerd808]

they wouldnt be resistant after 2 doses... he is just loaded and needs another dose...change the substrate as well..

Thanks, ok, I'll give him the 3rd dose of fenbendazole, like the vet suggested. And yes, while dealing with the worm issue I'm keeping him on newspaper that I switch every couple of days, with just a large turkey baking pan full of moist coconut coir for him to dig in - I can bake the coir to disinfect it! (Normally the whole tort table is full with it)

@Benjamin, I will ask our vet about Droncit.

And yes, @EricIvins, the fecal showed pinworms. This was the worst case the vet ever saw in a tort. I will have a second fecal run about a week after the 3rd dose of fenbendazole - I can see live worms in the feces now.

 

[TylerStewart]

I would keep doing the treatments at least once or twice more.... They won't be resistant that fast, and they're pooping out worms because the drug is working (worms aren't normally expelled in any significant numbers unless something is making their life suck in there). We normally do 10-11 day intervals, but if they're still coming out, I'd do up to 4 treatments. Panacur is an extremely safe drug that you almost can't overdose them on, so don't worry about it hurting the tortoise much.

 

[Laura]

certain drugs only work for some parasites.. be sure you are using the right stuff.. sounds like its working..
there is a Life Cycle of the worms.. some drugs only get certain stages and that is why you have to dose more than once.

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[TylerStewart]

certain drugs only work for some parasites.. be sure you are using the right stuff.. sounds like its working..
there is a Life Cycle of the worms.. some drugs only get certain stages and that is why you have to dose more than once.

Exactly.... In theory, the first treatment knocks out the adult worms, and the second treatment knocks out the newly hatched baby worms before they are egg laying size (because the first treatment won't kill the eggs of pinworms). The repeated treatments are useful because often the first treatment doesn't knock out all the adult worms. I don't see any problem with using at least 4 treatments, and if I think there's still an issue, I'll wait a month or two with no drugs (just clean conditions) and repeat the treatments after that. If you did 6-8 treatments, they probably would build up a resistance. It shouldn't take more than 4 treatments anyways unless you're dosing is too light.

 

[biochemnerd808]

Thank you so much!
@TylerStewart, I just sent you a PM about our dosage

certain drugs only work for some parasites.. be sure you are using the right stuff.. sounds like its working..
there is a Life Cycle of the worms.. some drugs only get certain stages and that is why you have to dose more than once.

Exactly.... In theory, the first treatment knocks out the adult worms, and the second treatment knocks out the newly hatched baby worms before they are egg laying size (because the first treatment won't kill the eggs of pinworms). The repeated treatments are useful because often the first treatment doesn't knock out all the adult worms. I don't see any problem with using at least 4 treatments, and if I think there's still an issue, I'll wait a month or two with no drugs (just clean conditions) and repeat the treatments after that. If you did 6-8 treatments, they probably would build up a resistance. It shouldn't take more than 4 treatments anyways unless you're dosing is too light.

 

[biochemnerd808]

Update: I have treated Mo 2 more times, 10 days apart, with fenbendazole. I'm definitely still seeing worms being expelled, the 2nd time they aren't wriggling though, and look smaller. So it looks like it is working.

BTW, I talked to the vet about Droncit 2, and those would NOT kill pin worms. Droncit is a drug used to kill tape worms.

Thank you for your advice! I'll have the vet run a fecal in a couple of days to see if the final treatment knocked out the last ones... there is a possibility she will recommend one more dose, 10 days from the last one (which was #4).

It is kind of a miracle that Mo is even alive, this is THE worst case of worms the vet office has EVER seen (the initial treatment resulted in the feces consisting of more worms than fecal matter for several days).

 

[kanalomele]

So glad to hear it is looking up for your lil guy! Keep us posted on what the fecal exam shows. And it may be time to start thinking about some super fiber foods (I like pumpkin for this)and having him on some good ol live bacterium dirt for awhile to support his gut flora returning to normal.

 

[biochemnerd808]

Thank you for the advice!

I actually just brought in a small pumpkin from outside today (mild weather over here!), to be butchered for the torts tomorrow. Mo is in quarantine, but I'm going to give all 4 of my torts some pumpkin to eat.

I supplement my torts with TNT with probiotics, and I have a baking fan full of organic soil planted with weeds in each tort table, so on that front, things should be good.

My other two Russian torts are very healthy - do you think it would be beneficial to rub Mo's food with some of their poop? Or will the probiotics + organic soil be enough? Mo doesn't have loose stools anymore.

So glad to hear it is looking up for your lil guy! Keep us posted on what the fecal exam shows. And it may be time to start thinking about some super fiber foods (I like pumpkin for this)and having him on some good ol live bacterium dirt for awhile to support his gut flora returning to normal.

 

[ottosmom18]

My tort had worms and parasites too...
Try a really high percentage vitamin liquid supplement and a cuttlebone, which you can find both at Petsmart. Worked great win mine!

 

[biochemnerd808]

Yep, all my torts (including Mo, who is in quarantine) have a cuttlefish bone in their tort tables, and I supplement with TNT.

My tort had worms and parasites too...
Try a really high percentage vitamin liquid supplement and a cuttlebone, which you can find both at Petsmart. Worked great win mine!

 

[Zabbi0]

How much is cuttlebone at PetSmart & do most torts take to it pretty well?

 

[biochemnerd808]

I think I paid about $3.50 for a 3-pack at Petco (I have 4 tortoises in 3 tortoise tables). My torts go for months without ever touching the cuttlefish bones, and then all of a sudden they'll decide to take a few chomps out of it. Good to have it available for when they decide they need it. The TNT supplement from Carolina Pet Supply has some calcium in it, too.
When I first got Mo, he actually ate up about half of the cuttlebone! He apparently really needed the calcium, so I was happy that I offered it.

How much is cuttlebone at PetSmart & do most torts take to it pretty well?

 

[Zabbi0]

Alrighty very good to know. I think since Sammy is 3yrs now I'll switch to that rather than the sprinkle calcium since he's not growing as much right now. Thanks!