Tort Enclosures, Ventilation vs. Humidity

[nootnootbu]

I've seen a lot of contradicting information about proper enclosures for tortoises, mainly the humidity vs ventilation topic.
Some advocate for closed enclosures with better ability to maintain humidity, while a great many others seem to advocate for tortoise tables with more ventilation.

The torts I recently got came with a tortoise table style set up, and my other enclosures (at the moment) are open topped. I try to keep the temp in the room at at least 60-70f (typically it's easily as warm as it is outside during the day with the cooler temps typically only at night), it will be warmer in the summer months, more like 80s-90s, and they all have CHEs and heat pads for warmth as well as the tube UV bulbs for UV.

The torts also pretty much have the run of one room of the house, it's basically just the tort room, with a few other things stored in there, like just some stuffed animals, potted plants, and shelved things.

Could I possibly just get a humidifier for the room and keep them with their current open topped/tort table situations by regularly watering and possibly planting their substrates? I think by going this route we could have both great ventilation and good humidity?
I do live in Georgia, so the humidity here is often over 50%, but not always, and it's probably a little lower inside the house?

They are also going to have some outdoor time this year during warm days, and when I move(probably in a year or two), they're going to get large outdoor enclosures with insulated houses for the chilly nights, and will still be mostly overwintered indoors.

 

[Cherryshell]

I think it really depends on what species of tort you have, something like a Redfoot/Cherryhead/Yellowfoot require a much higher level of humidity then something like a Russian or Hermanns. So for the tropical species a closed enclosure is better just for ease of getting the humidity levels needed for them.

 

[Toddrickfl1]

Really depends on the species and age.

 

[nootnootbu]

I have 1 Russian, 3 sulcatas, and 4 yearling red foots. I can probably swap the red foots to a closed enclosure pretty easily. Is there a good way to make sure they have adequate ventilation in an enclosed space?

Or, alternately,could I simply provide them with humid/enclosed hides while having a larger open enclosure?

 

[Cherryshell]

I have 1 Russian, 3 sulcatas, and 4 yearling red foots. I can probably swap the red foots to a closed enclosure pretty easily. Is there a good way to make sure they have adequate ventilation in an enclosed space?

Or, alternately,could I simply provide them with humid/enclosed hides while having a larger open enclosure?

You'd be better off putting the redfoots in a closed enclosure, not only for the humidity but temp as well as that species requires an ambient temp of 80+. That'll be much easier to maintain with a closed enclosure vs heating the entire room to that point.

How old are the Sulcatas and Russian?

 

[Markw84]

I have 1 Russian, 3 sulcatas, and 4 yearling red foots. I can probably swap the red foots to a closed enclosure pretty easily. Is there a good way to make sure they have adequate ventilation in an enclosed space?

Or, alternately,could I simply provide them with humid/enclosed hides while having a larger open enclosure?

Don't believe what you are hearing about "adequate ventilation". That is one of those outdated myths that persists to argue against closed chamber style enclosures. A closed chamber is not a sealed, air-proof enclosure. There are gaps around doors, and a big air exchange anytime you open the enclosure to feed, clean, bathe, etc. With the lights and heat inside, there is the constant issue of the hotter air escaping through any of even the smallest cracks and creating a draft effect always drawing in some more air as well. A closed chamber enclosure simply minimizes this to a degree where you can totally control the temp and humidity to a level that the system can maintain and overcome these losses.

The folks who maintain the ventilation argument, have never tried or used and good closed chamber. So no experience ever goes to fueling this argument. A good closed chamber is the best way to raise any species of tortoise, especially the first few years. And will benefit any tortoise as long as size is appropriate.

 

[nootnootbu]

You'd be better off putting the redfoots in a closed enclosure, not only for the humidity but temp as well as that species requires an ambient temp of 80+. That'll be much easier to maintain with a closed enclosure vs heating the entire room to that point.

How old are the Sulcatas and Russian?

The sulcatas are 2 and a half years old.

The Russian, I'm unsure on, the previous owners said he was 1 year old, but he's already nearing max size for a Russian, so I think they might be wrong, They had also gotten him from another previous owner, so the poor little guy is on at least owner #3

 

[nootnootbu]

Don't believe what you are hearing about "adequate ventilation". That is one of those outdated myths that persists to argue against closed chamber style enclosures. A closed chamber is not a sealed, air-proof enclosure. There are gaps around doors, and a big air exchange anytime you open the enclosure to feed, clean, bathe, etc. With the lights and heat inside, there is the constant issue of the hotter air escaping through any of even the smallest cracks and creating a draft effect always drawing in some more air as well. A closed chamber enclosure simply minimizes this to a degree where you can totally control the temp and humidity to a level that the system can maintain and overcome these losses.

The folks who maintain the ventilation argument, have never tried or used and good closed chamber. So no experience ever goes to fueling this argument. A good closed chamber is the best way to raise any species of tortoise, especially the first few years. And will benefit any tortoise as long as size is appropriate.

I think people might also argue for it because tortoise tables are often easier for someone to DIY than a proper enclosed chamber, and also much cheaper to purchase. Ultimately, I'd like to have an enclosed chamber, but I'm also concerned about good air flow, so wondering if there's a good way to provide ventilation in enclosed set ups.

For example, in a current, open topped set up, would it be possible to simply add a lid? Maybe leaving a small gap on one side to allow for more ventilation? I'm more looking to DIY things than to purchase premade things. I like the DIY aspect, as it also allows me to add on to the enclosures and expand them over time.

 

[Yossarian]

I think people might also argue for it because tortoise tables are often easier for someone to DIY than a proper enclosed chamber, and also much cheaper to purchase. Ultimately, I'd like to have an enclosed chamber, but I'm also concerned about good air flow, so wondering if there's a good way to provide ventilation in enclosed set ups.

For example, in a current, open topped set up, would it be possible to simply add a lid? Maybe leaving a small gap on one side to allow for more ventilation? I'm more looking to DIY things than to purchase premade things. I like the DIY aspect, as it also allows me to add on to the enclosures and expand them over time.

This isnt a problem, I have seen the same sources claiming that you cant have a good temperature gradient in a close chamber or that it just becomes like an oven etc. . . Well if you use the correct size enclosure it doesnt. If you use a 4x2 vivarium or a fish tank then sure, it is hard to provide gradients but if you use a a 4x8 space as you should be, then it really isnt an issue and there is no need for added ventilation. Think of it this way. On a table, you are always contending with the tendency for the larger environment, the room or house the table is in, pulling away your heat and humidity. This often means that under the basking lamp, the temp is correct, but everywhere else on the table it is too low. And dont even get into humidity, there is no way you can provide a relative humidity that is much higher than the rooms relative humidity.

With a closed chamber you can literally control all the variables and set it up exactly how the tort needs it regardless of the temps or humidity outside or in your house etc. . . A closed chamber will always work better because it is not subject to these variables outside your control.

The reality is a lot of people choose tables for reasons that have very little to do with the tortoise, a 4x8 enclosure is a big thing to find room for, and if you buy one they are not cheap.

Temperate torts, like your russian, can tolerate a table once fully grown, they can handle lower temps and humidity alright so its not so bad, but a closed chamber would be better because, while a Russian or Greek tort can live with temps in the 60s at night and 70s and low 80s in the day along with low relative humidity below 50%, they would be healthier and better off in a controlled environment that allows you to maintain the temps exactly in their sweet spot, and even adults can suffer from too low humidity with their shells becoming dessicated and susceptible to damage.

Honestly, forget the crap you read elsewhere, if you follow nothing but the advice you receive here, it may make things a little more difficult for you, but all your torts will be healthy.

On a side note, you have a lot of torts including some that will get really big. Hope you have a lot of room.

 

[nootnootbu]

This isnt a problem, I have seen the same sources claiming that you cant have a good temperature gradient in a close chamber or that it just becomes like an oven etc. . . Well if you use the correct size enclosure it doesnt. If you use a 4x2 vivarium or a fish tank then sure, it is hard to provide gradients but if you use a a 4x8 space as you should be, then it really isnt an issue and there is no need for added ventilation. Think of it this way. On a table, you are always contending with the tendency for the larger environment, the room or house the table is in, pulling away your heat and humidity. This often means that under the basking lamp, the temp is correct, but everywhere else on the table it is too low. And dont even get into humidity, there is no way you can provide a relative humidity that is much higher than the rooms relative humidity.

With a closed chamber you can literally control all the variables and set it up exactly how the tort needs it regardless of the temps or humidity outside or in your house etc. . . A closed chamber will always work better because it is not subject to these variables outside your control.

The reality is a lot of people choose tables for reasons that have very little to do with the tortoise, a 4x8 enclosure is a big thing to find room for, and if you buy one they are not cheap.

Temperate torts, like your russian, can tolerate a table once fully grown, they can handle lower temps and humidity alright so its not so bad, but a closed chamber would be better because, while a Russian or Greek tort can live with temps in the 60s at night and 70s and low 80s in the day along with low relative humidity below 50%, they would be healthier and better off in a controlled environment that allows you to maintain the temps exactly in their sweet spot, and even adults can suffer from too low humidity with their shells becoming dessicated and susceptible to damage.

Honestly, forget the crap you read elsewhere, if you follow nothing but the advice you receive here, it may make things a little more difficult for you, but all your torts will be healthy.

On a side note, you have a lot of torts including some that will get really big. Hope you have a lot of room.

I have a decent amount of room for now, as the living room is 100% tort space only really. The sulcatas, for now, are relatively small, and nowhere near the monstrous things they are going to be when they get older.

I am planning a move in the next 1-2 years, and I'm going to factor yard space into my home buying choices, as well as at least one room in the home dedicated to indoor enclosures for cool or unpleasant weather, including overwintering. My plan is to keep the red foots as a group, and fix them a suitably large enclosure, as well as do a large enclosure for the sulcata (or 3 separate enclosures as possibly needed depending on genders). At just over 2 years, genders aren't apparent yet, if they are all female, or 1 male and 2 females, a single enclosure might be possible, from what I've read, and if all 3 are female, then a single enclosure will likely be possible. If all 3 are male, or we're at a 2 male and 1 female ratio, then I will definitely need 3 separate enclosures for them. Ultimately, what I will probably do is build one very large one with two optional dividers to separate if needed. Though, I will not rule out the possibility that I might one day have to rehome one or two of my sulcatas, it will take a little while longer before I know for sure.

With the indoor room, I would honestly like to create a nice humid space (possibly with humidifiers), where we could have a room temp that stays around 80 (as this is good for all 3 varieties, and then add additional enclosure heat where needed.

I feel like DIY is the only option for an enclosed space that would be large enough for the sulcatas, and I might have to accomplish this by doing several levels to allow for more footage of space. I'm trying to get a feel for how people DIY enclosed spaces without them becoming ovens, I've seen some DIY for enclosed set ups here, but they are relatively small, nowhere near the size I would need for my sulcatas. They are barely big enough for my hatchling red foots and my Russian.

 

[Yossarian]

If your willing to sacrifice a room to your torts and keep the humidity 70-80% and the temps over 80 all the time then that could work ok with open tables. It will be more expensive as you will be heating a much larger space than you need to, however with a small herd like you have this may not be so bad.

On the enclosed space front for big torts, check these out - Baxter, Jackson, and General | Tortoise Forum

 

[Tom]

I've seen a lot of contradicting information about proper enclosures for tortoises, mainly the humidity vs ventilation topic.
Some advocate for closed enclosures with better ability to maintain humidity, while a great many others seem to advocate for tortoise tables with more ventilation.

The torts I recently got came with a tortoise table style set up, and my other enclosures (at the moment) are open topped. I try to keep the temp in the room at at least 60-70f (typically it's easily as warm as it is outside during the day with the cooler temps typically only at night), it will be warmer in the summer months, more like 80s-90s, and they all have CHEs and heat pads for warmth as well as the tube UV bulbs for UV.

The torts also pretty much have the run of one room of the house, it's basically just the tort room, with a few other things stored in there, like just some stuffed animals, potted plants, and shelved things.

Could I possibly just get a humidifier for the room and keep them with their current open topped/tort table situations by regularly watering and possibly planting their substrates? I think by going this route we could have both great ventilation and good humidity?
I do live in Georgia, so the humidity here is often over 50%, but not always, and it's probably a little lower inside the house?

They are also going to have some outdoor time this year during warm days, and when I move(probably in a year or two), they're going to get large outdoor enclosures with insulated houses for the chilly nights, and will still be mostly overwintered indoors.

Trying to heat and humidify an open topped table is like trying to heat your home in winter with no roof on it. Its doesn't work. On a cold winter night, do you close your windows and doors, and run the heater? Do you suffocate?

If the room temp and humidity is suitable for your species, as in the case of your adult Russian, then a large open table is great. The sulcatas need warm temps and high humidity with a basking lamp. The RFs need constant warmth and humidity with no gradient or basking lamp. There is not a one-size-fits-all temperature for keeping these three species.

 

[nootnootbu]

Trying to heat and humidify an open topped table is like trying to heat your home in winter with no roof on it. Its doesn't work. On a cold winter night, do you close your windows and doors, and run the heater? Do you suffocate?

If the room temp and humidity is suitable for your species, as in the case of your adult Russian, then a large open table is great. The sulcatas need warm temps and high humidity with a basking lamp. The RFs need constant warmth and humidity with no gradient or basking lamp. There is not a one-size-fits-all temperature for keeping these three species.

I'm definitely going to try to make the red foots a closed enclosure ASAP.
The sulcatas are harder because they are already so large, and I'm not sure how they would get so much humidity once they graduate to outdoors anyway? Though Georgia is pretty humid, so they probably would have good humidity outdoors here? Though, definitely not for the whole year, which is why I'm wanting to build a humid heated room for them to come into.
I am also curious to see how much a humidifier could raise overall humidity in a room, and if that would be beneficial to everyone, at least in the short term.

 

[Tom]

I'm definitely going to try to make the red foots a closed enclosure ASAP.
The sulcatas are harder because they are already so large, and I'm not sure how they would get so much humidity once they graduate to outdoors anyway? Though Georgia is pretty humid, so they probably would have good humidity outdoors here? Though, definitely not for the whole year, which is why I'm wanting to build a humid heated room for them to come into.
I am also curious to see how much a humidifier could raise overall humidity in a room, and if that would be beneficial to everyone, at least in the short term.

You can humidify the outdoor night box for the sulcatas. That's what I do in my dry part of the country.

 

[nootnootbu]

This is a good idea! Thank you.

 

[S2G]

I'll chime in with my experience. I think that idea is leftover from the days of thinking they need to be really dry. I had to do a temporary table for a surprise hermanns. An enclosed setup is so superior it's not funny. I cant maintain temps & my humidity is 40% at best. Far from ideal. Humid hides with foggers etc are just a bandaid to halfway get around doing an enclosed setup.

I've learned from my dart frogs days it's easy to bleed off humidity by doing a properly sized vent with some kind of fan blowing over it. It's kind of funny most people have problems with high humidity animals while I'm the opposite.

Even your russian requires humidity higher than whats usually comfortable in a home. A russian is an easy enclosure that's manageable & to be honest with a heat box it could brumate outside with no issue. A redfoot is going to get tricky. It's easy to provide the right temp & humidity. However, the size starts pushing the boundary of your average home. You basically need an indoor greenhouse. A sulcata is really biting off more than most people can chew unless you live an ideal year round state. I live in alabama & even if I were on the coast I'd be fighting an uphill battle. Theres just not an efficient way to heat the kind of space needed for one during the cold months. I wanted one bad, but it would make my utilities go through the roof in winter.

 

[nootnootbu]

I'll chime in with my experience. I think that idea is leftover from the days of thinking they need to be really dry. I had to do a temporary table for a surprise hermanns. An enclosed setup is so superior it's not funny. I cant maintain temps & my humidity is 40% at best. Far from ideal. Humid hides with foggers etc are just a bandaid to halfway get around doing an enclosed setup.

I've learned from my dart frogs days it's easy to bleed off humidity by doing a properly sized vent with some kind of fan blowing over it. It's kind of funny most people have problems with high humidity animals while I'm the opposite.

Even your russian requires humidity higher than whats usually comfortable in a home. A russian is an easy enclosure that's manageable & to be honest with a heat box it could brumate outside with no issue. A redfoot is going to get tricky. It's easy to provide the right temp & humidity. However, the size starts pushing the boundary of your average home. You basically need an indoor greenhouse. A sulcata is really biting off more than most people can chew unless you live an ideal year round state. I live in alabama & even if I were on the coast I'd be fighting an uphill battle. Theres just not an efficient way to heat the kind of space needed for one during the cold months. I wanted one bad, but it would make my utilities go through the roof in winter.

I'm sort of working with cheap bandaids for now as temporary fixes while I work on the larger builds to get good enclosures going. Then, there is my upcoming move to consider. We are only a single couple, but we are looking at buying a 3-4 bedroom house, plus one with a good amount of property attached. This way, I should be able to do both spacious outdoor areas and large indoor areas. This is my hope anyway, if that doesn't pan out, I may look at rehoming my sulcatas somewhere further south.

The really shocking thing is, the former owner raised these sulcatas for 2 and a half years, and the yearling red foots for the past year, with NO nighttime heat of any kind. The sulcatas were kept in a 8 x 4 tortoise table with a single basking combo bulb and a UV tube bulb (only on during the day). The red foots were kept in a large feed trough style tub with soaking wet substrate and no nighttime heat, no hides either, and a bright glaring basking bulb and coiled UV in a combo hood.

She was feeding both mainly hay and lettuce I think.

Also, a note on the Russian, their comfortable ambient humidity is 30-50%, so that's not much outside our usual humidity in my area, however, his CHE dries things out a bit, so I do worry about that. I've been watering and misting his enclosure, and I do daily 20-30 minute soaks for everyone.

It's going to be pretty impossible to get the red foots to comfortable humidity without doing an enclosed space though. The short term solution is to do some nice high humidity hides while I work on building entirely new enclosures for them.

I have also ordered some humidity gages and thermometers to keep in their enclosures, as well as an infrared thermometer to check surface temps on basking spots.

 

[Krista S]

I think if it’s done right and is in the appropriate space, a tortoise table for the Russian can work wonderfully. I have my Hermann’s tortoise in a “tortoise table” and have zero issues with maintaining heat or humidity...and I live in a cold, dry tundra. For me, I think the key to being able to do this is that the enclosure is in a small bedroom. If the enclosure was in a wide open and larger space, I don’t think it would work the same way it does for me now. I just wanted to put this out there because I all too often see tortoise tables get bashed. I think tortoise tables do have a place in tortoise keeping under the right circumstances.

 

[S2G]

I'm sort of working with cheap bandaids for now as temporary fixes while I work on the larger builds to get good enclosures going. Then, there is my upcoming move to consider. We are only a single couple, but we are looking at buying a 3-4 bedroom house, plus one with a good amount of property attached. This way, I should be able to do both spacious outdoor areas and large indoor areas. This is my hope anyway, if that doesn't pan out, I may look at rehoming my sulcatas somewhere further south.

The really shocking thing is, the former owner raised these sulcatas for 2 and a half years, and the yearling red foots for the past year, with NO nighttime heat of any kind. The sulcatas were kept in a 8 x 4 tortoise table with a single basking combo bulb and a UV tube bulb (only on during the day). The red foots were kept in a large feed trough style tub with soaking wet substrate and no nighttime heat, no hides either, and a bright glaring basking bulb and coiled UV in a combo hood.

She was feeding both mainly hay and lettuce I think.

Also, a note on the Russian, their comfortable ambient humidity is 30-50%, so that's not much outside our usual humidity in my area, however, his CHE dries things out a bit, so I do worry about that. I've been watering and misting his enclosure, and I do daily 20-30 minute soaks for everyone.

It's going to be pretty impossible to get the red foots to comfortable humidity without doing an enclosed space though. The short term solution is to do some nice high humidity hides while I work on building entirely new enclosures for them.

I have also ordered some humidity gages and thermometers to keep in their enclosures, as well as an infrared thermometer to check surface temps on basking spots.

30 -50% is pretty dry. Inside youd be much better served with 50-70%. What you need to take into account is micro climates. Theres going to be a difference being in open grass, under plants, thick dew soaked grass, etc etc when outside. Its extremely hard to replicate that inside so finding a happy stable medium is key. The readings outside where I'm at were in the 40-80% range depending on where you took the reading

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

www.tortoiseforum.org

 

[nootnootbu]

30 -50% is pretty dry. Inside youd be much better served with 50-70%. What you need to take into account is micro climates. Theres going to be a difference being in open grass, under plants, thick dew soaked grass, etc etc when outside. Its extremely hard to replicate that inside so finding a happy stable medium is key. The readings outside where I'm at were in the 40-80% range depending on where you took the reading

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

www.tortoiseforum.org

I mean 30-50% is what I've read is good for an ambient for Russians with higher humidity in moist hides.
I live in Georgia, in the US, I'm not 100% sure what our usual humidity is, but I know it's pretty high in the summers.
I am thinking I may very well try to replicate a natural habitat as much as possible for him. I'm considering doing a very large tortoise table set up with regular misting/watering, moist hides, and possibly fully planting it with grass and edible weeds.