To UVB or not to UVB that is the question (Redfoots)

Toddrickfl1

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When I first got Nitro before I found this forum I got so caught up with must have uvb, loads of uvb or he will get deformed I bought an absolutely ridiculous tube it was too big, mounted too low and hurt my eyes when I looked at it and he never came out of his hide the whole 3 months I had it. After researching and reading on this forum I realised I had it all wrong and switched out to a better tube and added some led lights so I could run the uvb tube for fewer hours and the change was instant. He was so much more active and I just felt so bad for subjecting him to that horrible light for as long as I did. Being in the uk I feel i do need some artificial uvb as the weather here doesn't permit many hours outside but i wish I'd found this forum sooner and threads like these to help me understand what I was doing wrong
Thanks for sharing. I had a problem with my first tort from a Coil bulb. That's what sparked my interest into the subject.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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on 23 July 2020 I posted about nine minutes of narrated video of some Bolivian redfoots I've grown up since they were just a few months old. My face book is https://www.facebook.com/william.espenshade.7 I never offered them UVB/UVA tubes. They do get much layer crumbles in their diet - https://kapidolofarms.com/2020/08/08/layer-crumbles/

I am currently looking for data on diet type, shell shape, intestine lengths of tortoises to see what correlation there might be regarding the ability to assimilate D3 from the diet along with other diet factors. The fun of unpaid research.
 

Toddrickfl1

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on 23 July 2020 I posted about nine minutes of narrated video of some Bolivian redfoots I've grown up since they were just a few months old. My face book is https://www.facebook.com/william.espenshade.7 I never offered them UVB/UVA tubes. They do get much layer crumbles in their diet - https://kapidolofarms.com/2020/08/08/layer-crumbles/

I am currently looking for data on diet type, shell shape, intestine lengths of tortoises to see what correlation there might be regarding the ability to assimilate D3 from the diet along with other diet factors. The fun of unpaid research.
I had to briefly reactivate my FB. Lol Those are some beautiful animals Will. Do they get access to the Sun ever? Or only raised with the LED's?
 

Kapidolo Farms

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I had to briefly reactivate my FB. Lol Those are some beautiful animals Will. Do they get access to the Sun ever? Or only raised with the LED's?

Right now only LEDS, before T5 HO bluemax tubes.
 

Toddrickfl1

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Right now only LEDS, before T5 HO bluemax tubes.
Thanks, great info. This is why I started this thread. Between your 8 and my 1, that's 9 examples of healthy juvenile Redfoots raised with no UVB exposure.
 

bonsai tortoise

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I’ve been keeping redfoots (and others) for over 10 years and breeding for the last 3. I’ve found that hatchlings under UVB on a 12 hour timer aren’t as active and tend to be recluses. I’ve also found some to have eye issues. I decided to not focus on it too much so I took it off the timer and turn it on manually when I do my daily routine of feeding, soaking, cleaning, etc. That amounts to about a half hour of UVB a day. Since I switched they are much more healthy and active.
For my adults and juveniles that spend May through September outdoors 24/7, I don’t use any UVB when brought back indoors for the winter. In fact last winter I kept a group of 5 juveniles (3-4” each) in an enclosure with only a CHE and indirect light from a window. They grew and did outstanding. So in my experience they don’t need strong UVB at all.
Sidebar - I’ve stopped using UVB for all my tortoises if they spend the summers outdoors. This is Greeks, Sulcatas, and Leopards. All are healthy and happy. My Greeks reproduce each year. My leopards are too young and my sulcatas are both female so I can’t comment on their reproduction. But if the gauge of a healthy tortoise is it being active, eating well, and reproducing if mature I’m hitting all those marks with just the sun as a UVB source for the adults for 4-5 months a year.
 

Toddrickfl1

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I’ve been keeping redfoots (and others) for over 10 years and breeding for the last 3. I’ve found that hatchlings under UVB on a 12 hour timer aren’t as active and tend to be recluses. I’ve also found some to have eye issues. I decided to not focus on it too much so I took it off the timer and turn it on manually when I do my daily routine of feeding, soaking, cleaning, etc. That amounts to about a half hour of UVB a day. Since I switched they are much more healthy and active.
For my adults and juveniles that spend May through September outdoors 24/7, I don’t use any UVB when brought back indoors for the winter. In fact last winter I kept a group of 5 juveniles (3-4” each) in an enclosure with only a CHE and indirect light from a window. They grew and did outstanding. So in my experience they don’t need strong UVB at all.
Sidebar - I’ve stopped using UVB for all my tortoises if they spend the summers outdoors. This is Greeks, Sulcatas, and Leopards. All are healthy and happy. My Greeks reproduce each year. My leopards are too young and my sulcatas are both female so I can’t comment on their reproduction. But if the gauge of a healthy tortoise is it being active, eating well, and reproducing if mature I’m hitting all those marks with just the sun as a UVB source for the adults for 4-5 months a year.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Hatchlings not being as active with the UVB on seems to be a pretty common finding. I also have done the same thing with my older tort for a couple years. He's outside in summer, and inside all winter with no UVB.
 

bonsai tortoise

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Thanks for sharing your experience. Hatchlings not being as active with the UVB on seems to be a pretty common finding. I also have done the same thing with my older tort for a couple years. He's outside in summer, and inside all winter with no UVB.
Good stuff. Mine are all healthy and robust and have been for years so I’ll stick with what I do.
 

pawsplus

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What do people think about artificial UVB in this situation: My redfoot, Beasley, is 22 years old. Have had her since 4 mos. She had a UVB tube in her baby enclosure. Since age 3 or so, I have vaccillated on providing artificial UVB for all the reasons in this thread. She is outside 12 hours a day for close to 5 months of the year. Do you think she needs artificial UVB in the wintertime?

Right now I have a MVB (100 watt flood) in her indoor enclosure, prepping for winter. Using a tube isn't really practical, and if the MVB weren't tnere, a 100 watt incandescent would be. So same heat either way. Some years I don't put in the MVB. I go back and forth just as this thread does.

Do we have any idea how much summer sun exposure is "enough"?
 

bonsai tortoise

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I’m of the belief that constant artificial UVB is not good. If you keep her outside for that long, I don’t think you need artificial UVB the rest of the months. All my tortoises are outdoors May thru Sept at least. This includes adults and hatchlings. Aside from very minimal use on the hatchlings during the winter, I don’t use UVB indoors and believe the sun does the job for those months.
 

Tortisedonk7

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My 4 month old hates the sun and seemingly any light. When I put him out side he immediately goes to his hide. If the weather is really cloudy or just after rain he will come out a little bit. I just put a shade cloth over the enclosure hoping that will help defuse the light and heat.
 

pawsplus

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I’m of the belief that constant artificial UVB is not good. If you keep her outside for that long, I don’t think you need artificial UVB the rest of the months. All my tortoises are outdoors May thru Sept at least. This includes adults and hatchlings. Aside from very minimal use on the hatchlings during the winter, I don’t use UVB indoors and believe the sun does the job for those months.
OK. Well, this is where I have come down most years. So she mostly hasn't gotten it in the wintertime. She is not avoiding it now and in the AM, when her enclosure's ambient temp is lower and before she goes outside, she has been heading for the area under the lamp and hanging out for a bit.
 

Zoeclare

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My 4 month old hates the sun and seemingly any light. When I put him out side he immediately goes to his hide. If the weather is really cloudy or just after rain he will come out a little bit. I just put a shade cloth over the enclosure hoping that will help defuse the light and heat.
Babies will actively seek out hiding spots and avoid the light as much as possible, my juvenile still spends most of his outside time hiding.
 

Toddrickfl1

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What do people think about artificial UVB in this situation: My redfoot, Beasley, is 22 years old. Have had her since 4 mos. She had a UVB tube in her baby enclosure. Since age 3 or so, I have vaccillated on providing artificial UVB for all the reasons in this thread. She is outside 12 hours a day for close to 5 months of the year. Do you think she needs artificial UVB in the wintertime?

Right now I have a MVB (100 watt flood) in her indoor enclosure, prepping for winter. Using a tube isn't really practical, and if the MVB weren't tnere, a 100 watt incandescent would be. So same heat either way. Some years I don't put in the MVB. I go back and forth just as this thread does.

Do we have any idea how much summer sun exposure is "enough"?
My older Redfoot has gone all winter without it going on 4 years now. I use a regular LED lightbulb with a 100 watt CHE right next to it. So he has a warm bright spot to bask if he chooses to.Screenshot_20200918-151722.png
 

pawsplus

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My older Redfoot has gone all winter without it going on 4 years now. I use a regular LED lightbulb with a 100 watt CHE right next to it. So he has a warm bright spot to bask if he chooses to.
In the past I have used 2 100 watt incandescents. But I will be providing additional heating in the room this year, so heat will be less of an issue in the enclosure. I think I will switch to this. A CHE and an LED. That would work well in my enclosure. Thanks!
 

christinaland128

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Thanks for this post! I’ve been investigating this for some time myself! I’m very curious!

Hatchlings in the wild spend most of their day hiding so there’s not much exposure to light and they grow beautifully in those dark humid environments.
 

Jlsretics

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Disclaimer: I posted this in the Redfoot section so people don't get confused. This thread ONLY pertains to REDFOOTS.

Do Redfoots need UVB? Or do they get all they need from their diet. I've heard people say both. I've been told that no UVB will produce a disfigured tort with MBD. Then I've also been told it's not necessary. Hatchling Redfoots in the wild spend almost all their time hidden, in leaf litter, pushed up in roots of plants, or even slightly burrowed. Places where UVB is not hitting them. So do we really need to blast them with 12+hours of UVB in captivity when they're young? This is the question I found myself asking. So I decided to do a little experiment. I raised my Hatchling for one year with NO Artificial UVB whatsoever.

This is my tort Large Marge at her first weigh in (January 2019). View attachment 302316

I raised Marge in a large closed chamber plastic Tote enclosure. I used a 50 watt CHE on a thermostat set to 85F. I maintained the humidity at 80%+. For lighting I used an LED strip light like this View attachment 302317
And a regular 60 watt incandescent light bulb. Both placed about 12" above the lid of the enclosure, and not inside it. I also fed a varied diet. In that first year I took Marge outside for natural sunlight a total of 6 times, totaling about one hour and 20 minutes for the entire year.

Marge ended up growing very nicely through out the year with a steady weight gain, no anomalies, and no signs of MBD. She topped out at 400 grams in that first year. (January 2020)View attachment 302318

So In conclusion I'd have to say I tend to think young Redfoots get what they need from their diet and that artificial UVB is not an absolute necessity for young torts. Adults I can't say though. This is just my opinion based on this experience. I would love to hear some thoughts, opinions, or experiences of others on the subject so feel free to share.
Having been to the Amazon, I couldn't agree with this more!! Many localities of Red Foot and virtually ALL Yellow Foots live in an environment that gets almost no sunlight at the ground level. In fact, when a tree falls there will be intense competition amongst plants for that tiny utopia of sunlight. To say that they leave daily for sun is not realistic as they would all have to live on the boarders. Even Sulcatas can spend MONTHS in their burrows during the dry season getting zero sunlight. I believe that the UVB requirements for virtually all or ALL tortoises is greatly exaggerated. Off topic but I believe their diets are too and they are much more opportunistic even eating meat when available. I am talking more Sulcatas there cause it is well known that Red Foots NEED some animal protein. Mine really only likes really old and soft fruit which makes perfect sense due to the fact that tortoises are not climbing trees to get the perfectly ripe fruit, they are eating the overripe fruit that has fallen to the ground! The moral of this is that there is ALOT about tortoises that I believe is misunderstood or not understood at all and there is definite need for further study and it will most likely come from us private tortoise keepers/lovers!
 

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bye_alicia

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Ineresting! Thanks for the post/thread.

My Redfoot was raised under UVB, soaked daily for his first year (and then a couple of times a week after that), lives in a closed system with temperatures ranging from 82 to 87 and humidity always close to 100%, and eats a nice variety of the recommended foods... and his shell isn't so smooth as your Redfoot's.

I attribute the difference to three factors, genetics, chance, and how fast my Redfoot has grown - he's about 1300g at two years of age.

As soon as I noticed some imperfections in Darwin's shell, more than a year ago, I examined every aspect of his life and living space, decided that I couldn't think of how to improve things for him, and decided not to worry about it... he's healthy, seems happy, and while not a bowling ball of a tort I think he's lovely and I love him.

As regards UVB
One funny thing, with my Redfoot as well as my other two forest tortoises (a Hingeback and an MEP) is that because I've designed their lighting systems to reflect heavy shading and tree-cover (I did this for Darwin by having a 12 hour light day with numerous 15 or 30 minute dark periods throughout the day), I can definitely note their affinity for light and for basking.

Darwin, my Redfoot, likes to come out of his hide and lay down under the light when it comes on, legs stretched out to maximize his UVB exposure; once the light shifts off, he trundles off to the other end of the enclosure again. He'll do this numerous times during the day, only when the light is on.

Not that they're the subject of discussion, but the Hingeback doesn't seem to care about light at all, except for a slight preference for the dark periods in his day for activity, and the MEP, like Darwin, likes to lay down under the light and stretch out, especially after eating.

I like this post, and this style of post because it asks questions about the nature of the way in which we keep our tortoises, and challenges traditional thinking with logic and reasoning, not dogma and "that's the way we've always done it" thinking.

Bravo!

JMHO, YMMV....

Jamie
I have tried to adopt this for my redfoot’s enclosure, approximately what is your lighting schedule? If you don’t mind sharing ?
 
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