To Hibernate or not to Hibernate? (Everyone's thoughts please)

[Candy]

I'm starting a thread to see what people's conclusions, thoughts and concerns are on hibernating captive tortoises. I live in Alhambra, California and as you all know it is warm enough here even in the winter time. I adopted Fernando from Walter a day before Easter so he's pretty new to me and this hibernation thing is also new since Dale, Ruby and Eddie don't hibernate. I've heard where a lot of you hibernate your tortoises, but I'm wondering if it is because it's for their best interest or if it's easier just to let them hibernate. Fernando is a Desert Tortoise and in the desert it gets very cold and that's his survival mechanism, but when we can provide heat and a warm enclosure for them wouldn't this be adequate? My concern is that I've heard that a lot of tortoises can come out of hibernation with a respiratory infection and I should think that the older they get the more dangerous this could be for them. Fernando is around 30 to 40 years of age (per Danny) and I know that he had a URI last year (per Walter). The only thing that I don't know is whether or not he hibernated last year because I didn't ask Walter that. Please explain the pros and cons of this so I can understand and learn from your knowledge.

 

[Yvonne G]

Candy sent me a PM wondering if she might have put this under debatable instead of here, however, I don't think it should be a debate. We welcome everyone's thoughts on hibernating. I don't think there should be a debate. Just give us your thoughts on the matter. Its a great topic and now is the time to start thinking about it.

 

[Angi]

Candy~ I have been wondering about this also. To be honest the idea of hibernating scares me.
I am afraid they will wake up because it gets to warm and be stuck in a scary dark place, I am afraid an animal will nibble on them and I am also afraid of them getting sick. I am glad you brought this up.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Candy...when I was first getting into tortoises my sister was the president of Fresno's chapter of CT&TC (is that right?) club. So every month to support her I hauled myself off to those club meetings and every winter or spring I heard the same thing..."PeeWee came up with a resp infection this year" or worse, "I lost 6 of my tortoises this year, they just never came up". I heard so much of that, and watched my sister lose numerous Russians that "just never came up". I have never hibernated any of mine and this is my thinking...hibernation is a state that tortoises go into to make it thru a time of no food and cold weather. If I can feed my guys and keep them warm they don't need to hibernate. I have not once lost an animal in a reverse hibernation situation...Why hibernate an animal that doesn't need to hibernate? By that I mean if I can feed him and keep him warm he does not need hibernation and I'm not going to put my animals in such a precarious situation.
My sister has 50 or more box turtles in a very natural setting, so they hibernate. I have 10 in an unnatural setting so they don't hibernate. I also think that they need to stay up all winter and keep me entertained! Just kidding...hahaha

 

[Candy]

Thanks Yvonne I thought the same thing but was not sure. I myself would rather just have people opinions or experiences so I can learn from them.

Angie, this is one reason that I posted this is. I'm also confused whether or not it could be more harmful to them then necessary for them.

Maggie, great post. This is exactly what I wanted to hear about. People experiences. I kind of feel the same way as you, but since I'm not as experience as you guys I didn't want to make a decision until everyone posts. I think I could make go on just your post alone though because it makes so much sense to me. Thanks.

 

[kimber_lee_314]

I hibernate most of mine every year (of the ones that do actually hibernate.) If they have been sick at all that year I don't hibernate them. I hibernate because I think it's better for them to do what they would in the wild. I believe I've read studies that show that tortoises who don't hibernate show some problems eventually. Don't quote me on this because I have no idea where I read it. I am super careful when I hibernate - I weigh them before, soak them once a month, and weigh them every two weeks. I allow 5% weight loss - and then they come up! I only hibernate for three months max - just the big boys. The smaller ones get less time. I really think it's a personal decision, no right or wrong way, this is just what I do. Good luck!

 

[Tortuga_terrestre]

HEY Candy & Tortoiseforum! Its been awhile since Ive logged on. Been Busy with Army Stuff and my recently born baby girl. To answer your question. Yes, Fernando did hibernate this past winter. He tends to get out of hibernation early (Late Jan early Feb?). And he did have URI, but was treated with Baytrol.. he was examined by Dr. Greek of Yorba Linda. Post new pics of fernando when you get a chance. Oh yeah....I almost forgot; Im going to be posting pics of my Huge female Russian tortoise soon. Ive had her since 2004 (My first tortoise ever). She hibernates every year outside...She is a trooper. Every year when i starts getting cold and I want to hibernate her indoors...she pulls a hudini....she is nowhere to be seen....Im so excited that I finally got reunited with only tortoise.....

 

[Candy]

Welcome back Walter I was wondering where you were. Welcome also to the newest member of TFO.....your new little bundle of joy. What's her name and how much did she weigh? How is your wife doing? Thanks for the information on Fernando as I never did ask you if he had hibernated. He's doing great. I just love him and so does everyone else over here. Can't wait to see pictures of your Russian.

 

[mightyclyde]

I don't know if this is helpful, but my adult boxie would hibernate every year starting in November <I live in central California>. I would wrap her in a towel once I found her and place her in an open basket in a cool area of the house. She would start stirring in the spring and be right as rain.

 

[Jacqui]

As a general rule, I let my more native turtles hibernate. The box turtles (Ornate and Three toed), the red eared sliders, the paint, the snapper and such. These guys also live outside in their enclosures 24/7 all year long. they decide when to go down for the winter and come up in the spring. Yes, it is scarey and I start getting anxious in the spring as the days seem to drag waiting to see them emerge.

I use to hibernate the Russians, but haven't done so the last couple of years. When I was blessed with my CA desert tortoise, Elmer was hibernated every year as he had with the two sets of caretakers he had outlived. It was in my mind just a part of Elmer being allowed to live his life as natural as possible. Of course it wasn't very natural since he spent it inside the closet in a box. It was something that he seemed to want to do for lack of a different term.

I feel like with the ones hibernating inside, it is a forced issue. I am making them do what I want them to do (which could go either with hibernating or not). I would be taking out of their hands..ummm shells the option to do what they wanted to do, when they wanted to do it, for how long, ect..,

With my group, I can't see any difference between health and sexual behaviors when I do or do not hibernate. However I do worry about long term issues. We say things like don't feed your Russian fruits because their bodies can't handle it due to the fact it's not widely available in the wild. Taking the same kind of reasoning, are we so very sure in the long term their body's may have a need to hibernate? I just am not positive.

I also think about the fact that it's just another way we are taking away from our animals a part of them that makes them who and what they are. Do we really want to (or even do we have the right) to domesticate tortoises and to me this is a step in that direction.

I think often we choose to keep them awake more for ourselves. We fear loosing them due to hibernation problems, but don't we also loose some when we don't? We think about our own loss of entertainment and companionship when they are hibernating. We also often don't want to do the lengthy period of cleaning out their systems and lowering heat/light to get them ready for hibernation.

Of if you want a bad reason to hibernate, it could be said we choose that not to have to fix them inside enclosures and pay the feed/heating bills they create.

If you can't tell, it's an area where I go back and forth on, where I do hibernate some but not others. I think it all comes down to personal beliefs and values, much like if you should breed this species or that one, or the old debate about wild caughts or not.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

I've heard that hibernation is important for many temperate-zone species if you want them to breed, but I've no idea if this is a hard and fast rule.

 

[Candy]

Jacqui thanks for posting your experiences. It gives me something else to think about.

Terry Allen Hall, interesting also as I have never heard this before. Does anyone have any information on this that they could share with us?

 

[Jacqui]

Well they use to say that about Russians, but I have not had any trouble with breeding and no hibernation. My friend Shelly is the person who wrote the article found in the Russian group about using the frig. She has almost (if not entirely) stopped hibernating her Russians and she still has lots of hatchlings.

 

[Candy]

I guess it's not exactly right then that they hibernate for that reason. I wasn't even thinking about the breeding aspect of it, but did want to find out after it was brought up. I'm really wondering what will happen come October with Fernando. Whether he will start doing whatever they do to get ready for hibernating or whether he will just go about his business and his daily routine as it is now. I guess I'll just have to wait and see what he does.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Jacqui thanks for posting your experiences. It gives me something else to think about.

Terry Allen Hall, interesting also as I have never heard this before. Does anyone have any information on this that they could share with us?

Here's some of what's on the web...kinda inconclusive, lots of opinions, though:

http://www.allturtles.com/turtle-care-sheets/land-turtle-care/land-turtle-hibernation-and-breeding/
http://www.anapsid.org/hibernation.html
http://www.animalhospitals-usa.com/reptiles/desert-tortoises/desert-tortoise-hibernation.html
http://tortoisetips.com/hibernating-tortoise/
http://www.pettortoise.co.uk/tortoise_faq.php
http://www.tortoise-world.com/hibernation.htm

 

[Candy]

Thank you for all of those sites. Already read through some of them and will get to the other shortly. Very good information though.

 

[Tom]

In my opinion, species that are supposed to hibernate should be hibernated. HOWEVER, that statement comes with a few caveats. I don't think underweight or sickly animals should be hibernated. I do think babies should be, but under the right conditions. I DON'T think that any animal should be left outside and hibernated "naturally". Our captive environments are not "natural" and I have personally killed beloved animals that I raised from babies doing it "naturally". I've gotten away with it many times too, but it is a gamble and it is totally unnecessary. Some people do it and get away with it, but you can see all the problems noted above with it.

I believe they should be hibernated indoors, under controlled conditions, with the right "lead in" and the right "wake up" period after. Its an art form and there are many ways to do it successfully, but I have never had any problem hibernating any species indoors and under controlled conditions.

Too many things can go wrong outdoors. Weather extremes and fluctuations, inability to dig in properly due to enclosure restrictions, flooding, burrow collapse, predators (think starving mammals in the dead of winter), etc... Indoor hibernation eliminates all of these variables, yet still gives them the "natural" cycling that their bodies need.

 

[terryo]

I don't know a thing about hibernating tortoises. My Dad never took in the boxies, and they hibernated in our yard for 60 years. The oldest one my sister and I inherited from him. My oldest boxie is over thirty years and has always hibernated outside, and I never had a problem with her until I took her inside one winter and she got a RI. This year all my boxies will hibernate outside except the hatchling. I loosen up the dirt with added peat moss to about 2 feet, and put about three feet of dried leaves on top of that. That's where my water turtles hibernated too. I never had one get sick and hopefully this year they'll be OK too, as some new ones are being added. There's always a chance of something happening of course, but it would be the same in the wild. The section that they hibernate in is elevated so no rain water can accumulate, and I also have drainage pipes under the soil in their garden. I cover it with plywood, which will hold cool moisture, and then I put a piece of pond liner on top of that. Then I just try not to have anxiety attacks all winter waiting for the Spring. I have no idea if you would do the same for a tortoise, but this is how I hibernate box turtles and water turtles.

 

[Candy]

In my opinion, species that are supposed to hibernate should be hibernated. HOWEVER, that statement comes with a few caveats. I don't think underweight or sickly animals should be hibernated. I do think babies should be, but under the right conditions. I DON'T think that any animal should be left outside and hibernated "naturally". Our captive environments are not "natural" and I have personally killed beloved animals that I raised from babies doing it "naturally". I've gotten away with it many times too, but it is a gamble and it is totally unnecessary. Some people do it and get away with it, but you can see all the problems noted above with it.

I believe they should be hibernated indoors, under controlled conditions, with the right "lead in" and the right "wake up" period after. Its an art form and there are many ways to do it successfully, but I have never had any problem hibernating any species indoors and under controlled conditions.

Too many things can go wrong outdoors. Weather extremes and fluctuations, inability to dig in properly due to enclosure restrictions, flooding, burrow collapse, predators (think starving mammals in the dead of winter), etc... Indoor hibernation eliminates all of these variables, yet still gives them the "natural" cycling that their bodies need.

I was hoping that you would post Tom because I was hoping to ask you a question (don't know if you know the answer or not). In your line of business do people house their own bears and if they do do they hibernate or not? I would also like more information from you on how you hibernate indoors...location, temps, how long? Thanks.

Terry I would say that turtles sound the same as tortoises when it comes to hibernating them. I liked your information and how you prepare the soil before they hibernate.

 

[Yvonne G]

Just remember, if you do allow Fernando to hibernate, he must be kept dry. In the fall, he will stop eating. He will still come out and lay in the sun, but won't graze. When he's ready to hibernate, he won't come out of his house. That's when I box them all up and store them in a cool dry place. You don't want a desert tortoise to get below freezing or wet.