To add to the pyramiding questions...

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Blondeangel

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I have two baby leopard tortoises, I would say my oldest is just under 9 months, the other is about 6 months....I have noticed in the past 6ish weeks a bit of pyramiding in both of them, more so in my older one.
oldest:
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youngest:
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Both currently live inside together here:
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the hamster igloo used to be their humid hide, with damp sphagnum moss, but they refused to ever go inside. when I put them in, they would just walk right out. maybe they didn't like the color? :) now they opt to sleep together under the little fake leafy plant. I currently use cypress mulch, but was debating to switching to coconut fiber/dirt mix. I just like how clean the torts stay along with them not eating and drinking messy dirt all the time.

I have replaced their heat bulb with a ceramic heater because I installed a AC in my bedroom where they stay, but they share my room with my 5 chinchillas, therefore my room is kept pretty cool *normally 69 degrees*, but their living quarters stays at a nice warm roughly 90 degrees, and 97 right below their heat lamp. This stays on 24/7 with about 10 hours of UVB daily.

They eat a diet of organic lettuce mix's including romaine, baby herb romaine, with random add-in's of dandelion greens, kale, collard greens. I mix vitamins & calcium powder twice weekly.

I used to soak them nearly daily but it seems to become more stressful then helpful, the older one fought to get out of the big bowl I used the entire time, and the younger one stayed in his shell in protest-underwater (which was probably a half inch or so deep). I am confused on how this is helping their shells stay smooth, and not just successfully stressing them out. I do have a water dish in their habitat which I believe they think is solely their toilet because they only go in it to poop. lol.

I just want them to be as healthy & happy as possible. And I was always under the impression that pyramiding meanss unhealthy/lacking something. I would like to know if there is something more I should be doing/not doing from someone more experienced? :) Thank You!
 

Blondeangel

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How should I go about adding more humidity to the current habitat? I currently can't really get a larger habitat at the moment (though, the one they are in is roughly 28inL by 18inW, I didn't think that was too small for such small tortoises?)
 

Laura

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you need to create different areas for them.. a cool side and a warmer side.. with a humid area as well. even if its just having a damp hide area for them..
when your area is so small, its hard to have the variation they need.
 

Blondeangel

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I currently use a 75 watt heat emitter bulb, keeping the large majority of the habitat in the low 90's, I was told by several reptile folks this was fine being more of a desert tortoise. I tried using a 60 watt bulb but it dropped the temp. in the further end to the low 70's at night, mid-to-high 70's during the day. Should I switch back to this bulb then? I recently (two-ish weeks ago) took out the never-used humid hide igloo. I will add one back, maybe in a clear-ish fashion.

My Russian is completely simple compared to these two. He lives outside in a 120 gallon rubbermaid by night and roams the patio by day. Lazy little tortoise, literally spending hours lounging out by the pool(which is covered, to keep little dogs, bird and tortoises out). The little tortoises never go out on the patio unsupervised, too much to get into trouble with them.
 

DesertGrandma

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There are caresheets on this forum for leopard torts. Please read them and you will understand better what their needs are. I agree you need a bigger enclosure with a hot humid side and the other side cooler and dryer so your babies can thermoregulate their body temps.
 

Baoh

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As things are, moisten the mulch.
 

CtTortoiseMom

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Soak the mulch, and I suspect your temps are really high. Do you have a temp gun? Also if you cover the side partially with plexi glass it will hold the moisture longer. I think those two lights side by side is too much. I have a CHE directly above my humid hide for my hatchling Leo. I soak the sphagnum moss bottom daily and the CHE keeps is around 85. Do you have an outside enclosure where they can graze and get natural sunlight? How much outside time do they get?
 

Tom

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That was a lot of questions. I don't want to miss any so I'll share my thoughts point by point.
1. Some torts just don't like their humid hides. I found black dish pans at Walmart for $2. Most of mine like these. I flip them over and cut a door hole out. Just keep putting them in there, after lights out, and sometimes they will learn to like it. If not, you tried.

2. Your cypress mulch should be fine. I would go wetter.

3. Get a bigger enclosure and cover as much of the top as you can, while still leaving room for the lamp fixtures. This will hold in heat and humidity better. Part of your problem is that chinchillas and leopard torts in the same room is not easy. The a/c dries out the air and cools it, so you need a whole lotta electric heat to counter-act the cool temps. All that electric heat dries out the air even more. You ought to consider other room options for one or the other of your animals so that you aren't fighting yourself so hard.

4. I think 90, all over, all the time is too warm. That's another reason why its so dry. If they are sleeping under that plastic plant over in the corner all the time it might be because that is the farthest point away from the excessive heat. A larger enclosure would help you to create a greater thermal gradient. I like 75-80 on the "cool" side and 85-90 on the warm side. I like a basking spot around 100, but only in that one spot directly under the lamp. For night, 78-80 all over works for me.

5. I think they need at least 12 hours of light a day. 10 will make them "feel" like its winter, even though its warm.

6. Do your calcium and vitamins on different days. Calcium can interfere with the absorption of some vitamins and minerals.

7. Your diet needs improvement. Less romaine and a little more variety would be better.

8. Soaking: The one who sits underwater "in protest" is probably drinking. They have to put their whole head in, including nostrils to drink. If he's sitting with his head underwater, its because he wants it that way. Don't worry about the other one "stressing". Many of them get very active in warm water and the exercise is good for them. Humidity, moisture and hydration are essential to preventing pyramiding. Different species need different things, but in my experience, leopards need a lot. The soaking ensures that they are hydrated AND it puts much needed moisture on their scutes. Soft, pliable scutes are key to reduce/preventing pyramiding. This is another reason that I recommend spraying their shells several times a day. At their ages you probably don't need to soak every single day, but I would still shoot for at least 3-4 times a week, especially since you are now trying to stop pyramiding in progress VS. preventing it before it starts. You should also consider that it is POSSIBLE that the pattern for pyramiding was already established before you got them. Many breeders keep them far too dry and dehydrated, in my opinion.

9. The "desert" tortoise way of thinking is a bit outdated now. The leopard and the sulcata both have very large ranges with millions of micro-habitats. You will never see a sulcata or leopard walking on a hot dry sand dune in a treeless area. Its quite wet where many of them choose to live AND babies stay very well hidden in the leaf litter and underground shelters. Babies are almost never seen above ground just walking around in the hot dry sun. They stay tucked in to tight little areas where humidity tends to be much higher than ambient. Those of us who put them outside in large weedy/grassy enclosures can tell you how well the little ones hide. They disappear. I think it would be more appropriate to label them scrubland, or forest tortoises, since that is a more likely habitat to find a wild one in.

Hope this all helps. Ask more questions if anything is not clear or needs more explanation.
 

Blondeangel

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Thank you for your help/opinions. I have read tons of care sheets, but everyone has their own idea on what is good/bad/successful/harmful-I just tried to find a middle ground on all the information I've read and what I can make work well. To reply to Tom's response:

1) I will try a different humid hid again, placing them in there after lights out, is a good idea thank you.

2) Tomorrow I am cleaning out their habitat I will try and make all the changes needed.

3) I have plenty of plexi-glass around I will make a make-shift cover for half of the set-up. I unfortunately can not move either animals to a different room currently, but I will work at the proper temps for the tortoises a lot harder and find a way to make it work properly.

4) I bought a new 60w heat emitter bulb. I do not have what someone said was a temp gun, but I have digital thermometer. The readings show 93 directly under the lamp, 84 mid-setup, and 76 under their little sleeping plant.

5) I will change the timer from 10 hours to 12 hours.

6) I do alternate my days vitamins and calcium two days of each-not not on the same day.

7) My diet I was a little un-specific sorry. I didn't mean to say romaine twice - they get a stable diet of organic baby spring mix. This mix includes: green romaine, green leaf, red leaf, red & green oakleaf, tango, red chard, green chard, lolla rosa, arugula, mizuna, spinach & tatsoi. (I do pick out nearly all of the spinach though, I know its not healthy for them, but sometimes a few random small pieces make it onto the plate). The Romaine Herb mix includes: baby green romaine lettuce, baby red romaine lettuce, lolla rosa, parsley, cilantro, baby green leaf lettuce. They get kale/collard greens/dandelion greens a couple times over the month.

8) The one who sits underwater in protest, he sits tucked in his shell, arms protecting his head - this is why it makes me worry. He isn't drinking-unless he can drink this way, which I never knew they could do this way.

Thank you so much for your opinions (everyone not just Tom). :) I do really appreciate it all.
 

Neal

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Besides what has been suggested I would suggest continuing keeping up with daily/every other day soakings. Not sure if you already do this, but try soaking them separately, when they're soaked in groups they tend to move around a lot more. If the one tortoise is staying in his shell, he is probably spooked by something. Maybe just set him in a separate room or outside when you soak him and leave him alone for awhile.

Good luck.
 
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