Tips for my sulcatas?

[jag1251]

Warning: Very long post incoming.
Hello Everybody! I've had my 2 hatchlings for close to 9 months now, and have been trying very hard to take good care of them. Before these two, I had suffered through a bad experience trying to care for baby sulcata. I had bought him from a repitle show, and he was always very lethargic, would eat little, and never grew in the 6 months I had him. I think he had internal organ failure, but I really don't know.

WIth both the first sulcata I had and the two I have right now, I've always come to this forum and looked through many of the helpful posts for help in taking care of them, but I feel there is only so much I can do by just looking through other people's questions, and I feel it's time to ask several myself.

A little background on them first.This first little guy is Bulbasaur (first 2 pictures), and the second one is Groot (because he's so much bigger than Bulbasaur). Groot is very shy, and he'll hide if he's handled too much. He's also got a temper to him though. If he's cozy in a certain spot, and I move him for whatever reason, he'll start wailing his arms violently until I put him down, and will rush back to his spot and just lay there. Bulbasaur is not as shy as Groot, and is a little more outgoing. He's always the first to go eat whenever I leave food on their plate, while most of the time I have to place Groot directly in front of the food so he can start eating.

When I first got them, I had them both in a glass tank, with coco coir bedding. I would try and soak them every day or every other day, and would make sure their substrate stayed damp. Slowly, as work got more hectic, I had less time to soak them, but would keep it to at least 2 times a week. When I got them, the breeder gave me some mazuri pellets mixed in with some grass pellets and some red and green pellets (don't remember what they're called). I tried feeding them the pellets but they wouldn't eat them, so I resorted to feeding them organic spring mix from the grocery store (Not ideal, i know...). In my mind I always said the spring mix would be temporary until I found a better solution, but the convenience of just buying the tubs of mix from the grocery store was just too great, and they ended up eating solely spring mix for a good 6 months. They got accustomed to the spring mix, and would refuse to eat anything else. I would try to sprinkle some of the pellets in with their food every once in a while, but they would eat around them. I tried soaking the mazuri pellets to make them soft and smear them over the mix, but they weren't having it. This continued for a while, until I decided that I really did have to do something about bettering their diet. I bought some seeds from tortoisesupply.com, and within a week had some healthy grass growing. I tried feeding them the grass, but they flat out refused to eat it. It was like they didn't know it was food. They did not eat for over a day and a half with the grass in their plates, but as soon as I placed some mix in there, they devoured it. A similar thing happened when I tried to feed them cactus. This continued for a couple of more months, until a couple of weeks ago. I finally managed to get them to try the mazuri pellets, and so far they've liked them. They finally acknowledge the pellets as food, so I've been trying to alternate with feeding them pellets and feeding them spring mix.

3 months ago, I decided that they were getting a bit cramped in their glass tank, and built them a large 8'x8' enclosure, and filled it up with coco coir. I figured that this would give them a lot of room to walk around, and they would enjoy it. At first they seemed lost in it, and would walk around for a bit before heading to one of the 4 corners of the enclosure and just digging themselves in. They later realized "Hey, this human always feeds us at the same spot", so they would just hang out around where their food plate was, and left the other 95% of the enclosure unused. This was no different than just having them in the glass tank, so I just moved them back. While in the big enclosure, their appetite also diminished greatly, and they were only eating once a day, if at that (They usually eat twice a day, and are quick to devour the food).

This brings us to their current status. They are currently back in the tank, with a zoo med heat lamp during the day (the expensive ones that provide heat and all the ultra violet stuff), and a ceramic heating lamp during the night. They're eating twice a day, most of the time spring mix. I try to feed them mazuri pellets 3-4 times a week, but am thinking of slowly weaning them off the mix, and get them to just pellets. I'm up to soaking them 3-4 times a week now, and am trying to keep their substrate moist.

Now for my questions:
1) Groot is so much bigger than Bulbasaur (almost twice as large) but as far as I know, they hatched at the same time. Bulbasaur even eats a lot more than Groot, and he's still small compared to him. Is this something to worry about? I feel like they've both grown a lot since I got them, but Groot's growth is definitely more noticeable.
2) I think Groot's shell is starting to pyramid a bit. It also looks like Bubasaur might be headed that way too. I blame myself in that they're diet isn't the greatest, and that I've been somewhat lacking in the soaking department. I feel bad that I let it happen, but am trying to keep it from getting out of hand. Other than soaking them more regularly and keeping their substrate moist, is there something else I can do? I've read about the humid hides, but I honestly don't understand their function. Are they just supposed to spend time there? How is the humid hide any different than from just the tree trunk they used to hide under? And how do they really work? Is it just a matter of keeping the substrate inside the humid hide moist?
3)Is their size appropriate relatively to their age? The only other sulcata I have to go by is my previous one that never grew, so I'm not sure if they're growing at a reasonable rate. Right now they're around 9 months old.
4)How do they look? Do they look unhealthy? One thing the breeder mentioned when I bought them was that you can tell if a tortoise is healthy by looking at their eyes. I'm not sure if that's actually accurate, but their eyes are always dark and glistening, so I figured that was good. This wasn't the case with my previous tortoise, so I thought it might have some grain of truth.
5) What can I do to get them to use/enjoy their new enclosure? RIght now it's just sitting in the middle of the living room, wasting 64 square feet of space since they won't use it. Should I maybe add some rock features or foliage to make it look a little more diverse?
6) What can I do to get them to eat anything other than spring mix. I don't know what happened that got them to try the mazuri pellets, but aside from that they've always been picky eaters. How much damage have I done if they've had spring mix for maybe 90% of their diet these last 9 months?

I know I have many more questions, but these are the ones that come to mind right now.

I know this is a lot to read, but thank you all so much for any help!

 

[Jodie]

Hello, and welcome to the forum. I want to start with the importance of humidity and heat. The new enclosure sounds great, but needs to be covered to hold heat and humidity in. Not warm enough is usually the reason for not eating. Post pics of your enclosure and we can give you ideas to tweak it.
For the diet, you need to fix this. Variety is key. I cut everything really small, and mix what they like with a little good stuff. Keep feeding this until they eat it. Then increase the amount of good stuff. This takes time, patience, and persistence.
Lastly for my advice is to separate them. Tortoises are territorial and solitary. The smaller is likely being intimidated, and will not thrive under the stress of not being able to get out of the dominant tortoises territory.

 

[Tom]

First things first… Hello and welcome. I'm glad you joined and asked your questions.

Your questions answered:
1. Yes, you should worry about this. They should not be living as a pair. It is very stress full for both of them.
2a. Yes they are pyramiding, but not a lot yet. This is not because of their diet. Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. An open topped tank is too dry. Your giant table is a great size, but it will be way too open. THe open top lets all the warm humid air escape and be replaced by colder drier room air. The only way an open top works for this species is if the entire room is warm and humid all the time. You need to be soaking them daily, or close to it, misting their carapaces several times a day and keeping the whole enclosure around 80% humidity. The idea is to simulate the African Rainy season that these babies hatch into. They are not a desert species. Dry is not good for them.
2b. Humid hides trap some humid air in a small closed in space. Half logs don't work because they allow too much ventilation and there is no way to hold in the humid air. Get a black dishwashing tub from Walmart, flip it upside down, cut out a small door for the tortoise and dampen the substrate under it. That's it. Don't be discouraged if they don't use their hides right away. Put them in there after lights out every night and give them some time.
3. I don't see where you listed their weight, so I can't really answer your size question. They look a little small for 9 months, but not terrible. However there is no size reference in the pic, so I can't say this with certainty.
4. They look okay in these pics.
5. I'm not sure your new enclosure is going to work if its got an open top. Close it in, divide it in half, and then you will be in business. And yes, add lots of furniture like logs and rocks, hiding spots and sunken water dishes.
6. Tortoises are creatures of habit. To get them to eat something new you have to mix it in slowly with old favorites. Chop up some grass, weeds, leaves or some grated spineless opuntia, super fine and mix in a tiny amount with the days big pile of spring mix. Mix it thoroughly and only use a very small amount at first. Gradually add more. If at some point they refuse the food, keep adding that same amount of new stuff until they do eat it. They will not starve themselves to death. A hungry tortoise is not a picky tortoise. It may take there or four days in some cases. You are not being mean or starving them. THey have food right in front of them if they want to eat. Gradually up the ratio of new to old over weeks or months. Don't rush this process. Daily soaks will also help with this as it will empty their gut and make them want to refill it.

Please give these a read:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi, and welcome to the Forum! I'm glad you've finally decided to be visible. It's good to meet you!!

 

[jag1251]

Thank you all for the replies!! The first image shows them next to a scale, and the second image shows their big, empty enclosure.

Covering their enclosure to keep the heat and moisture in doesn't sound like it would be too difficult. Would you guys recommend covering the entire enclosure, or just part of it? I would hate the idea of just having them in a closed box, but if it's what they need....

For the food: Now that it's spring, I'm going to give the grass seeds another try. Do you guys know if the seeds will grow properly in the coconut fiber substrate? Or would I have to put some potting soil in a portion of the enclosure to grow it? I'd like to plant it within their enclosure so they can graze as they wish.

The one thing i'm going to hate is having to separate them. I always thought they were buddies haha! They always cuddle up to each other and sleep together, so I thought they liked each other.

Thanks again for all the help!

 

[Tom]

Here is an example of the type of enclosure that makes maintaing the correct temperatures and humidity for this species easy:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/

Here is another example of a good enclosure, but don't copy the heating strategy as it wasn't all that effective.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/2015-growth-experiment.119874/

Here is the best example I've ever seen:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...r-new-group-of-tortoises.138430/#post-1297242

 

[Yvonne G]

An example from our members on growing seeds for tortoises is to buy a few kitty litter pans and plant the seeds in good soil in the pans. When the seeds are growing and the plants are fairly strong, you put ONE of the pans in the habitat with the tortoises, buried down into the substrate (or with a ramp leading up into the pan). When the grass in that pan gets eaten, you rotate it out of the enclosure and a new one in. In this way you always have grass for them. The grass grows better in the sun, so you can have the un-used pans out on the patio or otherwise outside.

 

[jag1251]

yYvonne - Thanks for the tip on growing the seeds, I'll be sure to give that a try.


Tom - The enclosure made by Markw84 seems great, but that is something that is WAAAY out my league. The top to one of the enclosures in a thread you linked (The one with PVC tubes and covered in plastic) seems somewhat simple to incorporate, and I think i'll go that route. If the entire enclosure is covered, do you think there is still a need for a humid hide? Or would that still be something that would be preferable?

For food, do you guys have any comments on Mazuri pellets? I've read comments on both sides of the issue, but if I remember correctly, I think I read in an old thread that Tom uses them regularly on his tortoises. Would a mix of both pellets and greens be OK, or do you guys prefer one over the other?

Do you guys have any comments on their size? From the picture, the bigger one of the two is ~5", and the smaller one is ~4", Is this reasonable for 9 month tortoises, or are they on the small side?

Again, thank you all for the help, I really appreciate it!

 

[Tom]

yYvonne - Thanks for the tip on growing the seeds, I'll be sure to give that a try.


Tom - The enclosure made by Markw84 seems great, but that is something that is WAAAY out my league. The top to one of the enclosures in a thread you linked (The one with PVC tubes and covered in plastic) seems somewhat simple to incorporate, and I think i'll go that route. If the entire enclosure is covered, do you think there is still a need for a humid hide? Or would that still be something that would be preferable?

For food, do you guys have any comments on Mazuri pellets? I've read comments on both sides of the issue, but if I remember correctly, I think I read in an old thread that Tom uses them regularly on his tortoises. Would a mix of both pellets and greens be OK, or do you guys prefer one over the other?

Do you guys have any comments on their size? From the picture, the bigger one of the two is ~5", and the smaller one is ~4", Is this reasonable for 9 month tortoises, or are they on the small side?

Again, thank you all for the help, I really appreciate it!

I offer a humid hide in all of my closed chambers.

I think Mazuri (regular Mazuri, not the newer LS type…) is a good dietary supplement. It is balanced nutrition specifically made for tortoises and it has produced good results for 3 decades now. I feed it to mine a couple times a week to make sure I'm filling in any nutritional deficiencies from the regular diet of weeds, grasses, grass hay, leaves, flowers and cactus pads.

 

[Mary <3]

Very cute torts and good for you trying to do the best thing for them.