Thoughts about maintaining a single animal

[cdmay]

Since I began keeping reptiles as a kid in the early 70s a concept has been drilled into my head by other, mostly older keepers. That concept is this: Don't maintain a single specimen. This was commonly referred to as 'dead ending'.
The idea was that since the reptiles we were keeping were often difficult to obtain (and virtually all of them were wild caught), we as keepers should pair up lone specimens in an attempt to breed them. This would help to relieve the tax on wild populations as well as assure captive availability of the species we had.

Fast forward a few decades. Now the majority of the reptiles we keep are captive bred and many, many species are being reproduced in ridiculous numbers. So then, for reptiles like turtles and tortoises is it OK to keep them as single specimens--even if they can live for many years, or decades. In other words, do turtle keepers still feel the need to pair up lone animals so that they may reproduce. Or have the ideas changed to the point to where many of us are content to keep a single turtle or tortoise in the same manner one would a house cat or dog?
Turtles and tortoises are far more responsive than say, a boa or a python. Are we 'depriving' them of something if we keep them as a single animal? Is it cruel somehow?
I realize that I'm being anthropomorphic but still...

I ponder this because I've arrived at a point in which I am really only interested in owning a single specimen of certain species and I have little interest in maintaining a breeding pair or group.

 

[Meganolvt]

Dogs are social animals, and we often keep just one. Human interaction seems to be "enough" for dogs (and in some ways, cats). Maybe It's enough for reptiles too? I know everyone says that reptiles don't care about us and don't need people and all of that, but I firmly believe that once a relationship is established, even if it is just a reptile associating us with providing food, it is still a relationship and therefore a group. Once we keep a pet, whether it is a cat, dog, snake, whatever, we are changing their life and their environment and I think they just adapt. In other words, a tortoise probably doesn't know it's deprived of a common companion, it just knows it has one (a human) that provides food, etc. On the other hand, who is to say that bullying and ramming when you have two isn't right or safe or whatever, maybe that's the nature of the reptile relationship and we just can't accept it? It's an interesting question you pose, i'm eager to see what others think too.

 

[Yvonne G]

I keep a single male sulcata. At one time,long ago, I put a female with him. It was pretty horrific for the female and taught me a huge lesson about single pairs. So the female was removed. It took the male a couple weeks, but he eventually settled down and stopped looking for the female. I don't interact with my tortoises, so he gets no human attention from me. He lives all by himself, wandering and eating, and, of course POOPING! I think I'm pretty good at observing the tortoise mentality, and while I don't want to use the word 'happy,' he seems perfectly content living as an only child.

Occasionally I get in a large male sulcata to find a home for. When this happens, he has to go into my backyard (the only other space I have for a large tortoise), and the backyard is on the north side of my sulcata's yard, the side the wind comes from, behind a 6' redwood privacy fence. When my sulcata senses another male nearby he starts pacing that fence with a vengeance. Just for the heck of it, one day, I opened the gate and let him into the backyard to see if I was interpreting my sulcata's fervor correctly, and a fight ensued. They were quickly separated.

So, I interpret my sulcata's normal everyday activity of wandering, eating and POOPING! as a happy, contented tortoise who doesn't need another tortoise in his territory to complete him.

 

[RosemaryDW]

I am a single owner of a Russian on accident, as she was someone's escaped pet.

There are plenty of wild caught and captive bred Russians available now: zero need for me to breed her. Given the requirements to successfully maintain two, I have no desire for more. She definitvely is not dying of heartbreak or pining for babies. She's just doing her thing, healthy and active.

Other than in extreme situations, I'd prefer to donate money and time to prevest destruction of habitat for native species, and/or alternative income sources for people who harvest them.

Keeping and breeding is sometimes necessary for critically endangered animals; breeding them with the idea it will minimize drain on native populations, however, seems unrealistic to me. Have we seen any evidence it works? Even if it does, casual breeding that is not well structured and tracked doesn't seem like the best way to ensure a healthy, viable population.

 

[Tom]

My recollection of the history of reptile keeping is a little different.

In the 70s and most of the 80s, reptile keepers were a fringe element. Usually into rock and roll and lots of tattoos. Generally not well accepted by the "main stream" because we were into all those "creepy crawly" things. Almost all of the reptiles available to the hobby in those days were wild caught imports from all over the globe. Sometime during the late 80s or early 90's two revolutions took place within the hobby. One was that we went "main stream". It became more socially acceptable to have a pet lizard or snake in your kid's room. Millions of people who previously had no interest suddenly had pet reptiles. The demand went waaaayyyy up. Simultaneously, and the second thing, most of the reptile keeping community realized two things: 1. We might be taking too many from the wild and doing damage to the species and their native habitats, and 2. The government is growing more powerful and restrictive by the day. These two elements drove the captive breeding revolution that swept the country in the early 90s and continues to today. Even back then we realized the CB animals made better pets and generally had fewer problems, parasites or diseases. I know there were guys like Carl and Bill Z. that were breeding back in the 60s and 70s, but those kind of guys were few and far between from where I was standing… which was in a pet shop selling all sorts of exotic reptiles, fish and birds from all over the world. In the 90s EVERYONE who was keeping reptiles was breeding, or trying to. It seemed like everyone I knew suddenly had a beardie, leopard gecko, king or corn snake, or a green iguana. The really cool kids had a monitor lizard, or a python. It was an amazing time to be in the pet trade.

More to the point of this thread: I see nothing wrong with people keeping a single pet. I see that as the main driving force for our hobby. Some people get one, love it, and that's all the farther they wish to take their hobby. Others have an interest in reproducing them and get more. I've got no problem with either. For species that are very rare and endangered, like Pyxis for one example, I would generally prefer them to be in the hands of experienced breeders and adding to the captive gene pool, but I have no problem with people keeping singles of radiata, sulcata, russians, or other species that are common and in no danger of extinction in our hobby or the world. I started out as just a tortoise keeper of a single tortoise. I liked them and wanted more. As a young man in the late 80s and 90s breeding seemed an admirable goal and I pursued it to some degree. Now, reproducing my tortoises is part of my enjoyment of the hobby. Seeing those little babies enter the world and seeing the joy that their new keepers experience is heartwarming and deeply satisfying. In the case of less common species, I find reproducing them to be a service to the species and the hobby, but I hold no grudge against somebody who just wants a single pet. With the lifespan of tortoises, it is pretty likely that a lone individual will end up in a breeding population at some point in its life, one way or another.

 

[Yvonne G]

I guess I missed the point. I am trying to breed YF, SA leopards and Manouria because those are not as readily available in the pet trade.

 

[dmmj]

I think w yyy might be confusing the two issues. back in the seventies when you got a specimen there were no large groups of captive breeders for most species.while nowadays there are dozens if not hundreds of breeders of all different types of species both turtle and tortoise

 

[cdmay]

Well, I must admit that I agree with all of the sentiments (at least in part) posted so far.
dmmj indicates the exact situation I encountered early on. But as I mentioned that has largely changed now.
Yvonne G. says she's attempting to breed tortoises that are not well established in captivity as of yet. I totally get that.
Tom echos a lot of my feelings too regarding such animals as Pyxis and so on, although in the case of sulcatas, most red-footed tortoises and many others such concerns no longer exist. The difference between Tom and myself though is that my early days of the hobby were in Palm Beach County Florida. The local herp society was started by such minds as Philippe de Vosjoli, the late Ellen Nicol, John Zura and others who were way ahead of the times. Philippe was especially influential when it came to breeding animals and also maintaining them in as large and natural an enclosure as possible.

But my main point and question is mostly aimed at the question of whether or not there is some physiological, biological, or just plain psychological 'need' for turtles and tortoises to engage in courtship (or some other social interaction) with members of their own kind?

 

[Anyfoot]

Since I began keeping reptiles as a kid in the early 70s a concept has been drilled into my head by other, mostly older keepers. That concept is this: Don't maintain a single specimen. This was commonly referred to as 'dead ending'.
The idea was that since the reptiles we were keeping were often difficult to obtain (and virtually all of them were wild caught), we as keepers should pair up lone specimens in an attempt to breed them. This would help to relieve the tax on wild populations as well as assure captive availability of the species we had.

Fast forward a few decades. Now the majority of the reptiles we keep are captive bred and many, many species are being reproduced in ridiculous numbers. So then, for reptiles like turtles and tortoises is it OK to keep them as single specimens--even if they can live for many years, or decades. In other words, do turtle keepers still feel the need to pair up lone animals so that they may reproduce. Or have the ideas changed to the point to where many of us are content to keep a single turtle or tortoise in the same manner one would a house cat or dog?
Turtles and tortoises are far more responsive than say, a boa or a python. Are we 'depriving' them of something if we keep them as a single animal? Is it cruel somehow?
I realize that I'm being anthropomorphic but still...

I ponder this because I've arrived at a point in which I am really only interested in owning a single specimen of certain species and I have little interest in maintaining a breeding pair or group.

I think the species of tortoise you are contemplating is also relivent to the question.
I guess all tortoises do ok on their own, but do they all thrive, do some need interaction and stimulation, is it a different answer for different species. For example the redfoot and Galapagos live in herds, and within those herds there seems to be social groups, well definitely with the redfoots and to some extent the yellowfoot from what I'm reading in the Debra Moskovits thesis you put me in the direction of. Debra has observed the same redfoots/yellowfoots grouping up months apart as well as bunking up together time after time.
It sounds like the complete opposite with let's say the sulcata, leopard and horsefield that seem to go out of their way to have an area to themselves. Solitary until it's breeding season in the wild.

I'm curious, do female sulcata prefer to be alone or is it just males dominating.

Back to Galapagos that live in herds wallowing in mud and bunking up together, JD's Galapagos seems to be doing fine, outgoing and growing well.

I personally wouldn't worry about just having one tort on its own. I keep thinking about getting 1 Indian star.

 

[Tom]

But my main point and question is mostly aimed at the question of whether or not there is some physiological, biological, or just plain psychological 'need' for turtles and tortoises to engage in courtship (or some other social interaction) with members of their own kind?

To this question, all of my experience with all species says they do just fine all alone.

Some species do seem to get along better with conspecifics than others, but all that I've seen thrive and do well all on their own. In fact, I'd say they generally do better all alone. Less stress, more food, best sunning and sleeping spots, no competition or dirty looks from across the way...

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I keep a single male CB leopard tortoise. He just turned 5.

He does not seem negatively affected by living alone in any way.

 

[TammyJ]

I don't know if a single tortoise of whatever species might "miss" the company of others of his kind, especially when he grows up and is capable of breeding. Do the females suffer psychologically when they lay unfertilized eggs? Do the males get the "blues" not being able to mate when it's "time"? Is it really just the actual physical presence, sight and smell of a female that gets the male in the mating mood, and not what is sometimes called the "season"? I think we will never know these things. Or maybe someone else here can help answer these questions.
I have asked my one year old redfoots, and they cruelly turned away and headed for their food.

 

[Big Charlie]

I don't know if a single tortoise of whatever species might "miss" the company of others of his kind, especially when he grows up and is capable of breeding. Do the females suffer psychologically when they lay unfertilized eggs? Do the males get the "blues" not being able to mate when it's "time"? Is it really just the actual physical presence, sight and smell of a female that gets the male in the mating mood, and not what is sometimes called the "season"? I think we will never know these things. Or maybe someone else here can help answer these questions.
I have asked my one year old redfoots, and they cruelly turned away and headed for their food.

My male sulcata gets in the mating mood quite often and there are no females in smelling distance. The large rocks in our yard serve as surrogates.

My husband always felt bad that we neutered our dog because he thought he was denying him the mating experience.