the ZooMed pellet challenge

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theTurtleRoom

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Thalatte said:
Oh wow didn't hink of using such large samples...that changes what I can do. I can provide some money towards it then.

Yeah...the reality of these foods, is however hard a company tries, no two lots will be the same...almost like dying yarn. So, you could test a small sample, but the reality is there is no guarantee your next lot will be the same. That's why even the data available on packaging is "min" or "max". Once you get up to 30+ samples, the mean data from the sample then is approximately distributed normal (...add some more statistical terminology here most people won't understand...), etc. At that point, one can then truly estimate what the typical content of the food is.
 

Thalatte

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I understand that they have to test a bunch if different batches but dent realize they would need so much of each batch. I was thinking a cup or less not a 25lb bag per batch.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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I received the following data sheet for nutrients as an e-mail. I preserved the integrity of the data in the e-mail by making it a PDF. That PDF is

here. . .
View attachment ZooMed.pdf

On the notion that multiple hundreds of pound of product need be looked at by the lab characterizing several lots for an analysis - that is just not so. Consumer products are analyzed in the form available to the consumer. As a consumer you are not expected to buy multiple lots mix them, to get a product represented on the bottle or by stated analysis. There is a prescribed error standard that is allowable, that is without the product being out of compliance with labeling practices. The result of an analysis is simply published describing the lot examined. As one lot of a food item may be represented by ten pounds or ten mega tones, samples from several lots may or may not be even possible.

So like yarn, which can vary from lot to lot - that yarn still has to be within tolerance if say that yarn producer wants to claim the color is a PMS standard (people who have set standards for color of ink, fabric, and several other media).

The lab would further guarantee their analysis within some standard tolerance, i.e. 300ppm +/- 3ppm. Labs that are used by state and federal agencies are sent samples within know tolerances to verify they are in compliance and able to state their tolerances accurately. This is done for two reasons, One - not all lab methods are identical, but one lab method should still end up with a statistically similar result as another lab that may use a different method, and two - it is a way for the lab to be certified as to the reliability of what they do.

Any how, it is absolutely OK, for a sample to be large enough for the labs' needs, and no more, multiple tests over time is a truer test of a consistent and uniform product line.

Ask a lab about a certified analysis, and this is what they tell you.

Will
 
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jaizei

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Thalatte said:
I can't see the pdf.

2wf7fj8.jpg
 

Yellow Turtle

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Thank you Will.

Now can we get such information from Mazuri as well cause seems Mazuri more popular among us here.
 

theTurtleRoom

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Yellow Turtle said:
Thank you Will.

Now can we get such information from Mazuri as well cause seems Mazuri more popular among us here.

Mazuri's info is widely available.


Will - I guess I come from the content from a statistical point of view where sample size and selection is the most important part of the process. It is probably true at this point that the process is refined enough to do as you say. However, I'd be fairly certain the guaranteed analysis they publish on each package came from thorough statistical analysis over a large sample of samples to make sure they had accurate data.

Glad someone else got back to you. Sounds like when they had one of their engineers run the Aquatic Turtle Diets for me last year, they decided to do all of it. (My contact is Animal Care Coordinator).
 

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Kapidolo Farms

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It is not lost on me that the data provided by ZooMed was 'guaranteed' by an employee/owner, and not a lab. I will continue to see if I can find a certified lab that will do the analysis for compliance with state regulations.

Distinct data missing from the report are viable pro-biotic cultures per unit weight or volume. The moisture value was lower than the label, which indicates they are maintaining compliance with min's and max's. The D content was listsed as D and not D3, and I suggest we need not debate the value of that difference.

If a lab will run an analysis for their compliance regulations I will pursue they do the ZooMed Grassland, more because I like the product than have worries. I find some great value in this diet in that when I scrutinize the tortoises fecal, I am seeing whole bits of undigested grass leaf. That is a good clue to me that among pelleted or commercial diets, the grassland has relatively good 'long fiber'.

This long fiber concept is extremely ill-defined. In a recent conversation with someone I consider an expert, long fiber is a feedback based value. The feedback is the fecal, did some visible lengths of items consumed make it through the digestive process and come out recognizable? That's the feedback criteria, and right away you can see it will be different for animals based on the animals' size.

For the longest time I had an image that long fiber was some quantity of how many carbon atoms were in a chain to form one molecule, not how many molecules are in a chain, to such an extent that you see whole "long" bits of grass in the fecal.

So a hoarse/cow long fiber would be different than a sheep, from a 200 pound sulcata to a 50 gram sulcata.

I recall the Galops at the Fresno Chaffee Zoo had whole bamboo leaves apparent in their fecal, that was their long fiber.

Back to the ZooMed, I see whole bits come through. So then I'm thinking well, what about D3, what about A, E and the rest? I think if the micronutrients are present in that expert's opinion, and I use it as a large portion, but not 100% diet item, I may stick with it for a longer term than 'just try it'. I mostly keep smaller species, so that relative criteria for long fiber will be well provided for with this diet.

I also use my own hand chopped grasses. I notice when I used the dry, it works better if I let those chopped pieces soak for awhile.

To be species specific, the pancakes I have seem to not care for long fiber as defined here longer than about an inch. However when fed arugula (the type where the leaves are about 3 to 5 inches and has convoluted edges) the pancakes will pick the stem end and eat the whole leaf into their mouth, with bites that draw it in, not chop it off.

Maybe the pancakes' long fiber is more the stem of leafy things, or the stem of say a small vinning weeds. They love to eat the stem of cucumber plants, and again they eat long pieces by drawing it into their mouth, not chopped off by their beak, bite by bite.

I suppose the subject title and all this are not in 'topic' strictly speaking. What to do?

Will
 

Thalatte

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Thanks for the pic jaizei.

And thanks will for the investigations.
 

ianedward1

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Well I am glad that posting about asking for nutrition contents a while back has really seemed to turn out some results lol. Glad to see that somebody followed up on my concerns and from what it looks like, the ZooMed has decent Ca to P ratios and nothing too extreme in terms of Vitamins (which can often be overused).
 

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ianedward1 said:
Well I am glad that posting about asking for nutrition contents a while back has really seemed to turn out some results lol. Glad to see that somebody followed up on my concerns and from what it looks like, the ZooMed has decent Ca to P ratios and nothing too extreme in terms of Vitamins (which can often be overused).

Thank you for reposting your initial interest here, that thread you started is

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-63467.html

and Madkins007 had some good links in response to your inquiry.

It also seems that I was overstating the variability of pet food labeling for actual content. The ingredients are not as rigorously tested before product release as human food, the label does have to accurately depict the content within a tolerance, but the total quality control parameters with pet foods is "loose" compared to human food.

Will
 
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