The End Of Pyramiding

Tom

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Every cross section of pyramided bone I've seen has been porous. Have you seen one that wasn't?
 

-EJ

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I've seen many pyramided shells where the cross section was dense. This is how I can state that pyramiding is not a sign of MBD.


Tom said:
Every cross section of pyramided bone I've seen has been porous. Have you seen one that wasn't?
 

Ansh

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This thread is taking an interesting turn. EJ, could you point me to any specific references suggesting that bone porosity is absent in pyramided bone? I would really like to study this aspect as it fascinates me. As a practicing rheumatologist I have lots of experience with MBD in humans. In humans osteoporotic bone is less dense. But a number of other metabolic bone diseases have completely normal bone density, and yet have bone that is brittle and of poor quality. Most importantly, the quality of bone often has very little impact on the general state of health in such patients. And so the question is, does pyramided bone fall into this spectrum of bone disease where the usual parameters for assessing bone quality are not useful.
[hr]
Ansh said:
This thread is taking an interesting turn. EJ, could you point me to any specific references suggesting that bone porosity is absent in pyramided bone? I would really like to study this aspect as it fascinates me. As a practicing rheumatologist I have lots of experience with MBD in humans. In humans osteoporotic bone is less dense. But a number of other metabolic bone diseases have completely normal bone density, and yet have bone that is brittle and of poor quality. Most importantly, the quality of bone often has very little impact on the general state of health in such patients. And so the question is, does pyramided bone fall into this spectrum of bone disease where the usual parameters for assessing bone quality are not useful.
I apologise if this is the wrong place for this discussion. Please move this post to a different section if appropriate.
 

-EJ

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You are going to the other end of the spectrum. I don't think I've ever seen where tortoise bone is brittle but I bet it does occur.

In my experience... pyramiding is not an indication of ill health or improper development.

Ansh said:
This thread is taking an interesting turn. EJ, could you point me to any specific references suggesting that bone porosity is absent in pyramided bone? I would really like to study this aspect as it fascinates me. As a practicing rheumatologist I have lots of experience with MBD in humans. In humans osteoporotic bone is less dense. But a number of other metabolic bone diseases have completely normal bone density, and yet have bone that is brittle and of poor quality. Most importantly, the quality of bone often has very little impact on the general state of health in such patients. And so the question is, does pyramided bone fall into this spectrum of bone disease where the usual parameters for assessing bone quality are not useful.
[hr]
Ansh said:
This thread is taking an interesting turn. EJ, could you point me to any specific references suggesting that bone porosity is absent in pyramided bone? I would really like to study this aspect as it fascinates me. As a practicing rheumatologist I have lots of experience with MBD in humans. In humans osteoporotic bone is less dense. But a number of other metabolic bone diseases have completely normal bone density, and yet have bone that is brittle and of poor quality. Most importantly, the quality of bone often has very little impact on the general state of health in such patients. And so the question is, does pyramided bone fall into this spectrum of bone disease where the usual parameters for assessing bone quality are not useful.
I apologise if this is the wrong place for this discussion. Please move this post to a different section if appropriate.
 

Tom

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Tuck and Trey have officially moved into the larger enclosure. They now have 7000 square feet to roam.

Here is Tuck sharing some Mazuri with Goldie:




Here is Trey having a bite with Daisy:




And here is the "big" picture:
 

Sky2Mina

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I observed this thread since almost the beginning (I think 5 or 6 months into the experiment) and I always awed and owed at these cute torts. I can't believe how much they have grown and how quick 3 years passed by. Needless to say, they are beautiful. This thread inspired me to raise my star in a humid environment (well semi-humid anyways with a humid box, frequent baths and direct-shell spraying), although I was afraid she'd get RI, but she never did. Keep up the good work, Tom. I love these experiment threads - also because of the regular growth updates and pictures. :)
 

Tom

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Sky2Mina said:
I observed this thread since almost the beginning (I think 5 or 6 months into the experiment) and I always awed and owed at these cute torts. I can't believe how much they have grown and how quick 3 years passed by. Needless to say, they are beautiful. This thread inspired me to raise my star in a humid environment (well semi-humid anyways with a humid box, frequent baths and direct-shell spraying), although I was afraid she'd get RI, but she never did. Keep up the good work, Tom. I love these experiment threads - also because of the regular growth updates and pictures. :)
Thanks for the support, and thank you for participating by adding your own info. I have not done this with Indian stars, so now we have more evidence from you demonstrating that it works with them too! :) Sweet!

Everyone else is welcome to chime in with their own experience on this topic too.
 

monkeylu

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Thank you Tom for this thread. I recently discussed my Russian with you and I admit I am new to all this. My passion is with sulcata though and this has been a treasure of information and research. Your care and love for these noble being is palpable. Hopefully soon I can chime in with my own findings and ideas. My husband and I plan to start a sulcata sanctuary for those who out grew their owners. Oh and I'm having trouble seeing the last 3 photos you posted on the 7/20/13. Perhaps its my stupid phone. Love and light to y'all.

Sent from my PC36100 using TortForum mobile app
 

BangoSkank

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Awesome job documenting their progression. This is very informative and I will definitely be raising my tort this way.
 

tortoise007

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Hey Tom (and everyone else on TFO, but I thought since this is Tom's thread...)!!!!! Loooooooooooooooooooooong time no post on my part :p ! Man I haven't been on TFO in ages! Well, I'm back. Quick question, Hermanns, they need a humid environment right? Remember my post months back: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-72793.html
Would this enclosure work for a hermanns baby? I never got my leo... life got busy, we moved ect. So i started considering other species, like hermanns.
 

fbolzicco

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congrats Tom!!
This is one of the best topic I've ever read.
I's wrong to think that desert tortoises never have access to moisture, remember also that in nature this animals dig deep holes to shelter from both hot days and the cold nights, but doing this they have access to the moisture in the subsoil.

p.s. forgive my bad english, I only need to improve it :)
 

andre_saltiva

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i do this method for a several day with my star
the problem is very hard to keep it humid while it warm,
when temp around 31-32c i spray all the substrate to raise humidity from 60-70 to reach 80 above, when I'm get the right humid, temperature suddenly fall to 26-27, so i get higher lamp ( 100 watt / add more lamp on the other end ) since move downward not working. and guess what, when i get the right temperature 30-31 on warm side, the humidity fall back to 60-70, arghh, i spray again and the temp fall again,,>.<
how can this happen?
i use closed wooden terrarium with some ventilation on upper front and some in lower back, 3x2x2' with cocopeat
my room temp is around 26-28 and humid 60-70
 

Cowboy_Ken

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andre_saltiva said:
i use closed wooden terrarium with some ventilation on upper front and some in lower back, 3x2x2' with cocopeat
my room temp is around 26-28 and humid 60-70
I would cover the vents to prevent the heat exchange to the room. My closed chambers have no vents. It stays constant temperature and constant humidity inside. I open my tortoise cage always
2-3 time each day, so they always have fresh air.
 

Tom

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Yep. I agree with Ken. If you are losing warmth and humidity, there is too much ventilation. With what you were describing, I was expecting your enclosure to have an open top. Then I read a little further.

Can you post a pic?
 

andre_saltiva

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Cowboy_Ken said:
andre_saltiva said:
i use closed wooden terrarium with some ventilation on upper front and some in lower back, 3x2x2' with cocopeat
my room temp is around 26-28 and humid 60-70
I would cover the vents to prevent the heat exchange to the room. My closed chambers have no vents. It stays constant temperature and constant humidity inside. I open my tortoise cage always
2-3 time each day, so they always have fresh air.
Tom said:
Yep. I agree with Ken. If you are losing warmth and humidity, there is too much ventilation. With what you were describing, I was expecting your enclosure to have an open top. Then I read a little further.

Can you post a pic?
here's my enclosure
should i cover all the vents
I'm just worried he don't get enough fresh air
the left side is the hardest to get right humid, 80% only last 15min

* vents mark with red arrow
C360_2013-11-01-09-38-31--picsay.jpg

* top side is fully closed,
 
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Cowboy_Ken

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So in my opinion, if you are opening your enclosure to feed once a day, you are providing e good air exchange. As far as how many/much to plug you need to experiment. I have zero vents.
 

Tom

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I would close them off and see what happens with your heat and humidity. Every enclosure is different and everyone must make adjustments based on the readings from their thermometers and hygrometers.

My closed chambers have no vents at all, but they are not air tight either. And as Ken mentioned, opening the doors a few times a day for soaking feeding, water bowl cleaning, etc., allows for a decent amount of air exchange.

I predict things will get a little better with each one of those vent you close.
 

andre_saltiva

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Cowboy_Ken said:
So in my opinion, if you are opening your enclosure to feed once a day, you are providing e good air exchange. As far as how many/much to plug you need to experiment. I have zero vents.
Tom said:
I would close them off and see what happens with your heat and humidity. Every enclosure is different and everyone must make adjustments based on the readings from their thermometers and hygrometers.

My closed chambers have no vents at all, but they are not air tight either. And as Ken mentioned, opening the doors a few times a day for soaking feeding, water bowl cleaning, etc., allows for a decent amount of air exchange.

I predict things will get a little better with each one of those vent you close.
already closed two vents on the back,, and tadaaaa temp an humid exactly just like what i want to be :D
thx for all your information

another question,
warm soak, 27C is warm enough? btw my tort is baby star which is sleeping alot whole the time,does it safe to wake him up to give carapace mistings or soak?
and he looks like to run panic when i soak him on swallow water bowl which is no able to run, is there something wrong?
thx
 

Tom

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32-35 would be a better soaking temperature. Its okay to mist or soak when he's laying around sleeping. Some of them take some time to get used to the soaks. Its okay. Its good for them. Make sure the water is not too deep, and that it stays the correct temp too. Its best to use a tall sided tub that they can't see through.
 
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