The Different Races of Redfoot Tortoise

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tortadise

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It's difficult just because it seems to be a new focus that's still not perfected. I have the best classification system (that works for my collection) the scutes on the head in each country have there own unique patterns and sizes. Shell shape sometimes differs. I'm at my facility now about to give some baths and take some photos. Stay tuned. ( keep in mind I don't have Internet acces here so gonna have to wait till I return to my house to post them)
 

tortadise

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here is a brazilian cherry head

very distinct cherry red face and legs





heres a bolivian

heres a brazilian

heres a costa rican

heres a grenada

heres a paraguayan

heres a trindiad and tobago
 

DanaLachney

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tortshack said:
here is a brazilian cherry head

very distinct cherry red face and legs



heres a bolivian

heres a brazilian

heres a costa rican

heres a grenada

heres a paraguayan







If I posted a pick of my MoonPie could it be confirmed that she is a Bolivian? I believe that's what she is..
 

tortadise

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heres a venezuelan and guyana. the first plastron is guyana and second is venezuelan. the huge difference amongst these two the guyana is 4 year old female 11' the venezuelan is 16 year old female 10"

heres claude hes an old man of a suriname.
 

starfield

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WOW! Beautiful specimens and several localities to boot! Thank you so much! Do you have clutches from all of the above locales yearly?
 

tortadise

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yeah load it up should be pretty easy for me to identify her. how big is she?

lately ive been trying to determine if these species can be interbred. only the obvious similar races of course. so this year i have nothing incubating as of right now of these species. well i take that back i do have 2 clutches of guyana eggs. should be hatching any day now. so far ive been unsuccessful in any different country locals producing viable eggs. but when bred with there country they produce and hatch like crazy. im still doing some personal research on it so i can confirm my thesis for my article. we will see.

i have more country locals just some of them didnt want to come out from there plant hiding from the greenhouse. and its a very nasty day in texas today so i figured i would let them be lazy when its cold and rainy.
 

starfield

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Thats excellent! Id love to stay updated on your projects and article! Please keep them coming! How many other locales do you have?
 

tortadise

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She's a Venezuelan. Bolivians have a bunch of scutes on there head. Her shell shape, color and slightly pointed nose tells me she's a Venezuelan. Venezuelans stay pretty small there an awesome country of redfoot to have. She's a beaut.
 

DanaLachney

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tortshack said:
She's a Venezuelan. Bolivians have a bunch of scutes on there head. Her shell shape, color and slightly pointed nose tells me she's a Venezuelan. Venezuelans stay pretty small there an awesome country of redfoot to have. She's a beaut.

Well thank you! I adore her :) any idea how big she could get?
 

tortadise

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The photo I posted of one of my Venezuelan females is 16 years old she's 11" and 7 pounds the other 3 females and male I have are all around same size. They might get 12-13" that would be huge for a Venezuelan though. They grow somewhat slower than the Guyana,Suriname or giant Bolivian or Paraguay species. There awesome though.
 

DanaLachney

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tortshack said:
The photo I posted of one of my Venezuelan females is 16 years old she's 11" and 7 pounds the other 3 females and male I have are all around same size. They might get 12-13" that would be huge for a Venezuelan though. They grow somewhat slower than the Guyana,Suriname or giant Bolivian or Paraguay species. There awesome though.

So if she's about 4" about how old would u say she is? :D
 

tortadise

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Couple years seems round about the size with proper nutrition and sunlight.

starfield said:
Thats excellent! Id love to stay updated on your projects and article! Please keep them coming! How many other locales do you have?

I have

Suriname
Guyana
Columbian
Costa rica
Grenada
Trinidad and tobago
Nicaragua
Brazil
Paraguay
Uraguay
Bolivia
Peruvian
And trying to find some Barbados that I've seen for sale a few years back. It's taken some time finding a lot of the different locals but there out there.
 

EricIvins

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[/quote]

Yet more anecdotal evidence that these are actually at least sub-species rather than 'races'! Races would interbreed freely.
[/quote]

I wouldn't go that far - Many Cherryhead/Northerns have been produced, and I know of at least 5 people producing Redfoots out of Colombian/Venezuelan/Guyana/Surinam animals.........

Matter of fact, alot of Tortoises that come out of Guyana are actually collected in Venezuela, because alot of Tortoise territory in Guyana is still very remote and un-reachable.......The absolute best looking Northerns come out of the Ripinuni Savannah though.......Virtually impossible to get anymore since the only person sending them out has been dead for a few years now.......
 

Madkins007

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Yet more anecdotal evidence that these are actually at least sub-species rather than 'races'! Races would interbreed freely.
[/quote]

I wouldn't go that far - Many Cherryhead/Northerns have been produced, and I know of at least 5 people producing Redfoots out of Colombian/Venezuelan/Guyana/Surinam animals.........

Matter of fact, alot of Tortoises that come out of Guyana are actually collected in Venezuela, because alot of Tortoise territory in Guyana is still very remote and un-reachable.......The absolute best looking Northerns come out of the Ripinuni Savannah though.......Virtually impossible to get anymore since the only person sending them out has been dead for a few years now.......
[/quote]

AAARGHHH! For some reason I cannot seem to actually add any content- it keeps chopping it off! This is trial #4...
 

Madkins007

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Since I cannot do a 'reply', I'll do it this way...

I am always a bit suspicious when it comes to tortoise crossbreeds, especially red-footed, for many reasons...

1.Tortoises can store sperm for years. Studies have found that at any given time, a female may have the sperm of several males. This makes determining a cross very difficult unless that female has NEVER been with another male- but that sort of keeping seems to reduce reproductive success. A lot of the evidence I have seen for a cross is based on an observed mating... which really does not prove much.

2. Even with the best of intents, we do not always know which gene pool the parents came from. The record of country of origin may be in error or may record the farm it came from, but not where the original stock was from. We don't know the actual borders of the gene types or if there are overlaps, so we are often not sure what gene pool the animals represent. In many cases, we guess the country of origin based primarily on color- which we already know is variable, even in a single nest.

3. Many 'crosses' seem to be based on an 'unusual' pattern or color, which is slim evidence for a cross. I would LOVE to see DNA testing done on these animals.

While I would dearly love for the red-footed tortoise to actually be some combination of species and subspecies, I am trying to keep an open mind about this.

Heck, I am even skeptical of the famous 'red-foot x radiated' cross. All we see is a photo of an adult with an usual pattern- I have never seen any photos of the tort when it was young, any siblings, even its supposed parents. For all we know, this is just an odd pattern on a tortoise kept in a mixed herd that someone 'decided' was a cross.
 
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