T. kleinmanni vs. T. werneri

[shackleton]

Maybe this should have gone in Debatable... I don't know.

Anyway, I haven't posted much, but I do check in; and I've been wondering about something.

Our family includes a male adult kleinmanni. If you search my posts you'll find his story and some pics. He's been with us for ten years or so.

Lately I've come to the opinion, based on photographs, that my guy, whom I've referred to as kleinmanni since I finally identified him, is actually werneri. It's fairly plain to see, as regards the black markings on the carapace and plastron.

But... I read things that suggest that, based on DNA, there may not be T. werneri at all. It seems agreed that there clearly is some kind of a Negev sub "group" if not sub-species.

I understand that this is a bit "inside baseball" about a pretty arcane species, but hey, this is the tortoise forum , so I'm hoping my fellows might have some knowledge and opinions.

Should I be saying that I have an "Israeli" tortoise as opposed to "Egyptian"?

Thanks,
Doug

 

[egyptiandan]

Your right no T. werneri Never thought there was
Also I don't think any T. kleinmanni ever came out of Israel and made it to the US. I'm pretty sure all our animals came from either Egypt or Libya. I have a male exactly the same, no dark marking on carapace or plastron. The pictures I've seen of supposed T. werneri all have a plastral pattern (especially the type specimen), but very light carapaces. That can be explained by coming from a hotter area, than say the Libyan animals, who tend to be very dark.
The male with no plastral pattern is most likely from Egypt. As even when they were first coming in in the early 90's, Egyptian from Egypt were rare. The Egyptian market had already been getting animals from Libya by that time.

Just my thoughts

Danny

 

[shackleton]

Hey Dan!

So that we're on the same page, we're talking about this type of difference, right? (Not my photos.)

The specimen on the right is my guy, all the way. The left is what I see typically as "Egyptians" on the web, and even when I got a peek several years ago at the Bronx Zoo. -They have since, I believe, given up on kleinmanni and moved their collection out to Baltimore.

 

[egyptiandan]

Thats what I'm talking about I'll get pictures of my male tomorrow.

Danny

 

[shackleton]

Okay, cool.

Then this is where I'm confused. -Here's the developing list in fact:

Why do you feel that no specimens came out of the Negev?

If you think that the light/no patterns come out of areas hotter than Libya, why do you think "Egypt", when we see these heavily black-patterened specimens presented as typically "Egyptian" ?

Doug

 

[egyptiandan]

I don't think Egypt with the dark animals, I think Libya. The heavy black colored animals have come from Libya and not Egypt.
No animals have come from the Negev, because Israel has been closed for legal export for a long time. Also Egypt would never be importing from Israel. All the Egyptians that came out, came through Egypt.

Danny

 

[shackleton]

The Egypt importing from Israel thing I get. -So far so good.

So, dark patterns = Libya, light/no patterns = Egypt. Okay, that's easy.

When did Israel shut it down?

So it really seems like what we refer to as "Egyptian" tortoises are "Libyan" tortoises, and the Egytian, Negev are the sub-groups?

 

[egyptiandan]

I'm pretty sure Israel shut down in the 70's, if not before.

They are still though Egyptian tortoises, common name wise. no matter where they are from. Sometimes though locality data is fun to have. With all the DNA work I've seen with Egyptians, there hasn't been enough difference to warrant any subspecies, never mind a different species.

Danny

 

[Meg90]

What about pigmentation being related to more than just native country temps? I read on a website that colors have coincided with the soil present in each region

(quote)
"Color is considerably variable and appears to coincide with general soil color from the various regions where the animals come from. Thus, dark animals are thought to come from Gebel Akhdar in Libya, where vegetation cover is densest in the specie's range. Pinkish specimens are thought to come from areas of reddish soil in Cyrenaica."

Just a thought

 

[shackleton]

Very cool stuff! Thanks.

Exactly, Dan, the locality stuff is really interesting to me. I'll have to look if there are any kleinmanni DNA projects out there who'd be looking for samples. They certainly do it with people these days.

Unless I can teach him to talk, I guess it'd be the only way to determine which part of the range his ancestors hail from.

 

[egyptiandan]

Here's my light colored male

Danny

 

[shackleton]

Here's my light colored male

Danny

Good looker! -Very similar to mine.

Is he shy?

 

[Stazz]

Very interesting conversation going on here...I love learning !! Wow amazing how light the carapace/plastron is...almost albino looking, but not. Lol