Sulcata still sick - comments/critiques welcome

[Gennifer11]

I have an estimated 7 month Sulcata named Leo. When we first bought him from a pet store I had done all the research online and was ready to go. After we got him home he seemed to get sick and he just kept getting worse. He had the bubbles from the nose, trouble breathing, and sqeaking when he couldn't breath etc. We took him to the vet and got some antibiotics and other recommendations. We tried the shots and when those didn't work, we tried the 45 day oral antibiotics. By the end of the 45 days he seemed much better. We even went back to the pet store and complained about how the poor little guy was on an iceberg lettuce diet, no vitamins, no calcium and he was in an aquarium tank, the pet sore also never bring their reptiles to the vet like petsmart will, they ended up giving us our money back for the tortoise.
It's been about 3 weeks and $400 vet money since we stopped antibiotics but the symptoms seem to be lurking back. He has the bubbly nose, mostly for awhile after his soaking, he squeaks occasionally, and he is so lazy. I thought we kicked the respiratory infection in the butt. So I need some advice. Does this sound like a lifetime issue? Am I doing something wrong?

Here is my info: It's winter here in VA, so we are house bound.
Enclosure contains basking mercury vapor UVB light kept between 95-115°F (when he started getting sick again we increased the temp from about 90-100° to current temp), a night red IR heat lamp so he's not cold kept at 75-85°, coconut husk substrate kept mostly moist on basking half of enclosure, dry Timothy hay on other half (I just bought a heated mat to go under enclosure container under hay section since the house is pretty chilly) he has rocks to climb on, hay to hide in, alway a small dish of water even though he never uses it, and I've been feeding him a new diet for the past 2-3 months which includes MAZURI pellets (recommend by the vet since they are one of the only tortoise food producers that is regulated and tested) but I saw there is a lot of protein in there so I do half of that and half of the zoo - med grassland tortoise pellets. He eats almost a full pellet size by the end of the day. I also try to pick his favorite clover type plants outside when the weather permits. If that isn't available I sometimes offer kale (he hates it), cucumbers, just introduced Brussel sprouts, on the rare occasion I will give him Romain lettuce or drop of pumpkin puree. Other foods I've tried that he doesn't like, carrots, all fruits, tomatoes, peppers, he even managed to find a little chunk of boiled egg yolk on the floor and chowed down (that was great to catch him doing...) Let's see, besides that I give him a 15 min soak everyday, twice a day now that he seems to be sick again. When he is rest less I will let him run around the living room, he loves it until he's tired then he will find somewhere to hide and wait for me to find him...at least he is getting exercise. The only type of deformity he "could" have is his face is always crusty and peeling, near his mouth and nose it looks like he has smooth skin (I would imagine he rubbed all the 'scales/scutes??' away.)

Let me know if you have any questions or comments please. I love this little guy like a child, I would hate to have anything happen to him.

-Gennifer

 

[Gennifer11]

This is my little baby

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Gennifer, and welcome to the Forum!

I'm not a big fan of using hay as substrate. Baby sulcatas require a moist environment in order to grow smoothly, and hay molds when wet. Also, your diet leaves a lot to be desired. Take a look at our care sheet pinned at the top of the Sulcata section. He tells you what to feed your baby and how to set him up.

 

[cmacusa3]

You need to read @Tom care sheets and change a lot of stuff.

 

[Yvonne G]

...also, his beak looks like he may be in need of some calcium. Besides calcium-rich foods, he will need a pinch of calcium powder over his food two or three times a week.

 

[Gennifer11]

Ah yes I forgot to mention the calcuim, I've been sprinkling calcium on there a couple times a week, maybe I'll increase it a bit, and multivitamin a couple times a month.

Also I cleaned his enclosure a couple days ago but here is a pic, he loves climbing so I made some climbing ramps that wont mold in the wet substeate, the hay is always dry, I have a barrier between the different substrates (I learned my lesson about mold hiding under the rocks and such so they are now on the hay side) the vet recommend the hay so he would have someplace dry to go when he wants.

 

[Tom]

You need a closed chamber so you can create warm tropical conditions. A low sided sweater box or tortoise table is worse case scenario. 75 is too cold at night and I'm going to guess it is much cooler than 75 away from the heat lamp. You need to keep the entire enclosure no cooler than 85 day and night to kick the RI. Not gonna happen in an open box in a cold room.

Also red bulbs are no good. It messes with their day/night cycles, and sometime makes them eat substrate. They need it dark at night and light during the day. They never need it red at any time. Get a ceramic heating element and a thermostat.

They should never be on the floor. It is dangerous down there and far too cold.

Here is how you should be caring for the baby:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.78361/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

 

[crimson_lotus]

Yes, definitely get rid of that red bulb and the hay. I would not let him out of the enclosure, especially when he's sick, as it really is too cold. I sat on my own floor the other day and it was FREEZING.

It took my tortoise about 6 months and 3 rounds of antibiotics to get over her pneumonia. It will take some time.

 

[Gennifer11]

Oh goodness, I thought I was doing pretty well. He's my baby so I'll have to make some changes

 

[Tom]

Oh goodness, I thought I was doing pretty well. He's my baby so I'll have to make some changes

There is so much old outdated misinformation out there in the world... You've seen some of the results of following that advice.

I'm glad you found us and I hope we can help.

 

[bouaboua]

We glad to have you here! ! ! This is a great place or what?? Welcome.

 

[Gennifer11]

We glad to have you here! ! ! This is a great place or what?? Welcome.

It's pretty awesome. I'm very glad to be here. There are some gorgeous torts on here.

 

[Gennifer11]

You need a closed chamber so you can create warm tropical conditions. A low sided sweater box or tortoise table is worse case scenario. 75 is too cold at night and I'm going to guess it is much cooler than 75 away from the heat lamp. You need to keep the entire enclosure no cooler than 85 day and night to kick the RI. Not gonna happen in an open box in a cold room.

Also red bulbs are no good. It messes with their day/night cycles, and sometime makes them eat substrate. They need it dark at night and light during the day. They never need it red at any time. Get a ceramic heating element and a thermostat.

They should never be on the floor. It is dangerous down there and far too cold.

Here is how you should be caring for the baby:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.78361/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

Thanks for the links. How long is a tort considered a baby until? Is it around 4"? I'm planning on bringing his enclosure upstairs this weekend for wintertime (for now), I'll look into ordering some heating elements for a good constant night temp. I read that torts don't see red light, is that not true?

All in all, correct me if I'm wrong, I need to have a high humidity while he's a baby (80%?), a temp never lower than 85 until he is better (then no lower than 80? maybe) and the Timothy hay is bad because it does not provide the high humidity that he needs? I do have a 10 gallon fish tank in storage that I could use for the high walls and humidity retention but I'm worried it's too small for him, will he get enough exercise? And I thought that too much humidity can give them RI's, is that bad info too? That's why I have the hay, for a dry area.

I saw your tort pic and it is so beautiful, it's shell is amazing. So anything I can do to help my little guy get there!

 

[Gennifer11]

...also, his beak looks like he may be in need of some calcium. Besides calcium-rich foods, he will need a pinch of calcium powder over his food two or three times a week.

Do you have any good foods in mind? My guy is pretty picky. And winter doesn't give me any options.

 

[Tom]

Thanks for the links. How long is a tort considered a baby until? Is it around 4"? I'm planning on bringing his enclosure upstairs this weekend for wintertime (for now), I'll look into ordering some heating elements for a good constant night temp. I read that torts don't see red light, is that not true?

All in all, correct me if I'm wrong, I need to have a high humidity while he's a baby (80%?), a temp never lower than 85 until he is better (then no lower than 80? maybe) and the Timothy hay is bad because it does not provide the high humidity that he needs? I do have a 10 gallon fish tank in storage that I could use for the high walls and humidity retention but I'm worried it's too small for him, will he get enough exercise? And I thought that too much humidity can give them RI's, is that bad info too? That's why I have the hay, for a dry area.

I saw your tort pic and it is so beautiful, it's shell is amazing. So anything I can do to help my little guy get there!

1. Hatchling = still have the egg tooth
baby = first year
yearling = from 1 to 2 years
juvenile = 2 years until they reach adult size
subadult = big enough to reproduce, but still not a large mature adult
adult = mature and near full size
2. Torts see better than we do and a larger spectrum of light. If you can see it, they can see it. So no, its not true that they can't see red light. They can and it messes with their head. Can you imagine what it would do to you if you were stick in a small room with nothing but that red light day and night?
3. You are correct on your temps, humidity and hay assessments.
4. 10 gallons is much too small. Correct again.
5. Many books and websites perpetuate this "humidity-causing-RI" myth. It is a demonstration of how ignorant they are and we all were. I used to parrot this info too, since it is what I read in all the books back in the days before the internet. The people who went on to write internet care sheets read the same books that I had read back in the old days, and the incorrect assumptions and myths have lived on until this day and show no sign of dying anytime soon. Sulcatas hatch into high humidity in the monsoon season in Africa. If those books were correct the whole species would be extinct. I have raised literally hundreds of sulcatas, and other species too, with this high humidity, monsoon season simulation and it works fantastically. Thousands of other people have now done it too, with the same positive results. Not one RI or case of shell rot yet. Maybe tortoise number 10,632 will be the first one to get a RI due to high humidity like the books said it would. Doesn't seem likely though...
6. They don't need a "dry" area. They need warm tropical temps and monsoon season like humidity Think of New Orleans or South FL in summer, only hotter. Have you ever been in that sort of oppressive heat and humidity? THAT is what a baby sulcata needs. Room temp in winter in VA is NOT what they need. The heat lamp is warming (and drying) that one basking area, but the rest of his enclosure is room temp and far too dry. This is why he keeps getting sick. You need to either heat and humidify the whole room, or make a "chamber" of sorts and heat and humidify the air just inside that chamber. There is no way to do what you need to do when the cold dry room air is freely circulating with the air in the tortoises enclosure. You need to contain your warm humid air with something like this: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/

Thank you for the compliment. I would like for your baby to grow up looking and feeling just like mine.

 

[Gennifer11]

Hey everyone, I have a couple more questions. I am very disappointed that I am not doing good for my tort so I'm going to go out tomorrow and get a whole new set up.

@Tom I've been looking at a bunch of everyone's hand made enclosures and they all seem to be made of wood, are you using treated wood so it doesn't mold? Hand made seems like the best bet but I know he will grow fast, so I'm even debating getting a large plastic bin instead.

@Yvonne G, he hasn't been eating as well as he should so does this sound more appropriate? I'm still planning to feed him the MAZURI pellets and grassland pellets mushed but I started to finely chop up some grass and mix it in the mush. I'll still sprinkle calcium on there a couple times a week. And increase my multivitamin to once a week. I put a cuttlebone back in the pen but they never interest him so I've also seen someone's post about homemade calcium treats. I might try that if he refuses this. Do you have any other suggestions?


@all, I'm looking at the CHEs and I'd imagine I'm going to get a 100 watt depending on the plastic tub size, is there a difference between the black ones and the regular ones? Also which type of domes do you need for these?

For the temp thermostat timer, are there brands you guys recommend?

After all that is said and done I will have a closed enclosure, I'll try to either cut holes in the top for the lights cords to go through, have the lights inside the enclosure, use aluminum foil anywhere the heat is too high, if that doesn't work I'll use the plastic spread on top. No more hay. And I'll post before and after pictures to see how this method goes.

 

[crimson_lotus]

My enclosure is made from wood but what I did was I lined it with pond liner to make sure that the wood didn't mold. All of my wood is untreated, however none of that wood is exposed to the 80-90% humidity inside the enclosure. The top on my enclosure has plexiglass on the inside. A lot of people use waterproof stains on their wood as well. I have attached a picture of mine.

I remember Yvonne saying she uses black lights as the light they emit is like the light of the moon, plus they save more electricity in comparison to the CHE's which strictly emit heat. I personally have only used CHE's and I have one 100w and one 150w. They keep my enclosure temps steady with a cold side of 80-85 degrees and a basking spot of 95-100. The lamp where I keep my 150w bulb actually has a dial as well so I can adjust the temperatures, so I never use it at full power.

 

[Tom]

Hey everyone, I have a couple more questions. I am very disappointed that I am not doing good for my tort so I'm going to go out tomorrow and get a whole new set up.

@Tom I've been looking at a bunch of everyone's hand made enclosures and they all seem to be made of wood, are you using treated wood so it doesn't mold? Hand made seems like the best bet but I know he will grow fast, so I'm even debating getting a large plastic bin instead.

@Yvonne G, he hasn't been eating as well as he should so does this sound more appropriate? I'm still planning to feed him the MAZURI pellets and grassland pellets mushed but I started to finely chop up some grass and mix it in the mush. I'll still sprinkle calcium on there a couple times a week. And increase my multivitamin to once a week. I put a cuttlebone back in the pen but they never interest him so I've also seen someone's post about homemade calcium treats. I might try that if he refuses this. Do you have any other suggestions?


@all, I'm looking at the CHEs and I'd imagine I'm going to get a 100 watt depending on the plastic tub size, is there a difference between the black ones and the regular ones? Also which type of domes do you need for these?

For the temp thermostat timer, are there brands you guys recommend?

After all that is said and done I will have a closed enclosure, I'll try to either cut holes in the top for the lights cords to go through, have the lights inside the enclosure, use aluminum foil anywhere the heat is too high, if that doesn't work I'll use the plastic spread on top. No more hay. And I'll post before and after pictures to see how this method goes.

I'm using plastic liner in my current ones, but looking for acceptable alternatives. Haven't found anything I like yet.

Any CHE should work. I've been using the ZooMed ones. No problems to report.

I get my timers at the hardware store or Walmart. They keep changing the brand names of the thermostats.

 

[Gennifer11]

My enclosure is made from wood but what I did was I lined it with pond liner to make sure that the wood didn't mold. All of my wood is untreated, however none of that wood is exposed to the 80-90% humidity inside the enclosure. The top on my enclosure has plexiglass on the inside. A lot of people use waterproof stains on their wood as well. I have attached a picture of mine.

I remember Yvonne saying she uses black lights as the light they emit is like the light of the moon, plus they save more electricity in comparison to the CHE's which strictly emit heat. I personally have only used CHE's and I have one 100w and one 150w. They keep my enclosure temps steady with a cold side of 80-85 degrees and a basking spot of 95-100. The lamp where I keep my 150w bulb actually has a dial as well so I can adjust the temperatures, so I never use it at full power.

Is this the kind of set up your using?

 

[crimson_lotus]

I THINK this is the lamp I bought:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FTEQCY/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

but what I did was I got rid of the clamp and I made a hanger out of a coat hanger, since the clamps are known to fall. I have this stand to go with it:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000255OUO/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

and I just took the base off and fastened it to the wooden enclosure.

I do not use a black light, I use the lightless CHE's. I just remember Yvonne talking about using them. I also do not use a thermostat, but I know that I should.

My house is at a constant 65 degrees in the winter so I just don't touch the lamps once the temperatures are perfect.