sulcata squeak, should I be concerned?

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TurtleAsylum801

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Hi there! I’m Des, I have two 5 month old sulcata tortoises that I acquired 1 month ago from a private seller. There names are Dexter & Scully. I was told they were incubated to be female so there is a 90% chance that they are. Yes I know Dexter is not a girl name but it definitaly suits her.
I have had other turtles/tortoises in the past but sulcata’s are by far my favorite. I love their cute little personalities & how curious they are. They love to explore & have a heafty appetite!!!
One reason why I joined this forum is because Dexter has been making an odd squeaking sound and it has me concerned. We first noticed it about 3 weeks ago but she only did it a few times so it didn’t seam like a big deal. Now over the weekend she was doing it a lot more frequently. She pulls her head and front arms into her shell and makes a little sqeak. When she draws her head out she rubs her face as if she is trying to wipe something off but I don’t see anything. She doesn’t have any drainage and is not gaping for air. Is this normal? Is there something I should be doing or watching for?
Some background… I live in Salt Lake City so we see all types of weather here. I currently keep the girls inside because fall is here and it’s way to cold to keep them outside. I house them in a 2x3’ zoo med tortoise house with cocunut fiber substrate. For heat I have a zoo med terranium hood with 1 60 watt infrared bulb. I also have 1 dome light fixture with a 150 watt uvb bulb. There is 1 small water dish for drinking or soaking. The left side of the cage is covered so they have a place to cool off. The temps range from 80-95 on the hot side & 65-80 on the cooler side. I feed them a variety of green & red leaf lettuce, spinach, dandelion greens & also a sulcatga grass mix that I planted. I sprinkle calcium on the greens every other day. The substrate was dry at first but I recently started misting it down to add humidity.
If anyone has any suggestions for housing on anything else please let me know. I want to ensure that my babies are well taken care of and any information will be useful.
 

wellington

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Sometimes when they pull their head and legs in quickly, they make a noise. Nothing to worry about.
 

TurtleAsylum801

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Is it normal for her to do it frequently & then rub her face? Last night we were watching her and she did it at least 4 times in 20 minutes. She doesn't have discharge from her eyes but we did notice 1 tiny bubble come out of one nostril. I just figured it was due to the soak she had earlier in the day... I had a box turtle that would get startled and she would make a fast exhale & hid in her shell, this is nothing like that.
 

Tom

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65 is WAYYYYY to cold for a baby sulcata with humidity. You do have a problem, but you seem to be catching it early. It is very difficult to maintain good growing conditions in an open topped enclosure such as yours. You will have an easier time if you can use a closed chamber or at least cover most of the top. All that electricity you are burning is drying everything out, including their shells.

You need to maintain an ambient temp of around 80 all the time with that sort of humidity. I like an ambient of 80 with a basking spot of around 100 for twelve hours a day. I don't like colored bulbs for this because they make things look funny to them. A ceramic heating element on a thermostat is a much better way to go, in my opinion.

Also, you are dealing with some chronic stress there. Tortoises don't usually do well in pairs. Singles are best, groups are usually okay, but pairs are often problematic. I would separate them into their own enclosures.
 

TurtleAsylum801

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My apologies Tom, the cool side is 76-80. Not 65!! Thank you for your concern and for the information. I haven't heard anything bad about keeping torts in pairs until now. They seam to like being around eachother and always cuddle with eachother when they sleep at night. Are there certain signs we should be looking for to see if they should be separated?

I will see what I can do about covering some of the cage to trap more heat and moisture. Are aquariums better, or should the wood tortoise house make do with some minor adjustments?

We are still not sure if we should be concerned enough to take Dexter to a vet. She is still very active and eats like a little piggy. We are hoping with these changes that she will improve but I don't want to not take her in and have her end up getting worse. If she does have a repiratory nasal infection can they go away in the early stages, or does it always have to be treated with antibiotics?
 

Tom

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In order:

There might not be anything to see externally with your pair. One or the other of them is dominant and the other one would walk away and go elsewhere if given the opportunity. Forcing them to live together in one enclosure causes long term chronic stress. They will both be happier and healthier with their own kingdoms, where they don't have to share resources or contend with competitors. Most species of tortoises are solitary. They don't need or want competition. This might be why yours is showing early symptoms of a RI. They sleep together because that is likely the best spot, as far as temps and microclimate in the enclosure, and they both want to be in that same spot. You see it as cuddling. I see it as two competitors fighting for the best spot and trying to survive. Actually visual bullying or fighting seldom occurs in hatchlings, but the mental stress is there. Talk to some chameleon keepers about visual stress. Being able to simply see another chameleon in a cage across the room is sometimes enough to send a chameleon into a downward spiral.

In my opinion, aquariums are better. But closed chambers are best. I spelled it all out here and here:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-32333.html#axzz2AhfAM9fL

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-58180.html?highlight=Where+to+BUY+a+closed+chamber#axzz2AhfAM9fL


In most cases if you discover and correct the CAUSE of the RI, it will not be necessary to treat the symptoms with harsh drugs and expensive vet bills. Up your temps about 10 degrees all around for a couple of weeks and your symptoms will likely go away. If chronic stress is the cause, you will probably have to separate them before you see improvement. Either way, raising the temps won't hurt.
 

TurtleAsylum801

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You brought up some really good points Tom. In our eyes, we always picture them as human behaviors and think it's cute to see them cuddle but it is most likely just as you described & one of them is trying to be the dominant one. We have a square aquarium that we can move one of them into for now and make the temp adjustments to see if that makes a difference with Dexter. We had them in an aquarium originally but after reading stories about shell rot and humidity causing respiratory issues I bought the tortoise house instead. It has been a challenge keeping the temp up & the substrate moist so we will definitely be looking into other housing options after this experience. Looks like you have had a lot of success with the closed chambers, I look forwarding to reading more about it.

Thank you again for all of the information. It has been VERY helfpul!
 

wellington

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Sorry, I missed the 65 degrees but glad your not keeping it that low anyway. You also didn't mention any bubbles in the first post. I would have answered to it differently. Anyway, Toms got you covered. Don't forget to read his threads at the bottom of my and his threads. I wouldn't let the temp go below 80 and keep humidity at 80 or above.
 

TurtleAsylum801

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Sorry I failed to mention the bubble in the first post. I've been e-mailing anyone I can find online & calling local vets about my concerns so I've lost track who I told what. This forum has definitely been the most helfpul so far. I'm anxious to get home to try these new suggestions. I have checked out a few of the links and they are really interesting & full of useful information! I've printed all of them out so I can do some homework later. THANK YOU!!!
 

bfmorris

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'Squeaking' is not pathognomonic; it can be an indication of stress due to a number of possibilities. For example, too hot at night, (this most often occurs in larger tortoises over three inches that are still on a super warm hatchling regimen), or too cold in the day, bladder stones due to dehydration, etc.
 

sibi

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I'm glad you chimed in bfmorris. All the information from Tom is true, except that I have had the same experience as you. But that's a discussion for later; more important than they being separated, is the issue of squeaking. Bfmorris is right, it's an indication of stress due to too hot or cold temps, or bladder stones due to dehydration. In my case, my baby began to squeak three months ago, and continues to in the same way as yours. I brought him to the vet and they did an x-rays and found several small stones he had ingested, in addition to a large stone in his bladder. He has since passed the stones he ate, although he had a lot of pain trying to pass them with the large stone in his bladder. What remains is this stone in the bladder which has not gotten better. I have set an appointment to bring him to Univ. of Florida Vet. Hosp.where there are some of the best tort vets in the state. It is very likely that he'd have to have surgery to remove the stone. I see how much my baby strains to urinate/defecate. Sometimes he does, and other times he doesn't like now. He's eating less, and now he's neither urinating nor defecating. I hope I haven't waited too long because I fear that he's in real trouble now. I've often read on this forum that some members did not notice anything wrong until some serious symptoms appeared. By then, it was too late. I can assure you that I've been on top of this everyday, yet I hesitated to have that surgery done because it's so evasive. At worst, they'd have to cut out a piece of his plastron which is what I wanted to avoid. So, what I would advise you to do is first take your tort to a vet who can at least do an x-rays of your baby. If there isn't any stones, then you can at least rule out that. If the squeaking is from something in his enclosure, you can try changing the temps and/or separating your babies to see if that was the problem. But, based on my experience, I believe there may be some dehydration involved and perhaps it's a bladder stone that's causing your tort pain. Please take your tort to a vet! Keep us posted.
 

dmmj

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Are there bubbles or discharge coming from the nose? Sometimes a squeak is just a squeak, it all depends on whether it is a one time occurrence, or something that happens more often.
 

mainey34

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Hello and welcome. Not sure if anyone mentioned. But below my signature there are threads on raising sulcatas. Lots of good info that tom has put together..
 

TurtleAsylum801

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We only noticed one tiny bubble coming from one nostril last night. So far it has only been a one time occurrence. There is no noticeable discharge or anything else coming from her eyes or nostrils. Sunday night she was squeaking quite frequently & last night it was only a handful of times. Today we haven't noticed any squeaking but she has started to make a click sound with her mouth. She will do it every 20 seconds or so and then stop for about 5 minutes and start up again. Since the top of the cage is open we feel that it might not be staying hot enough at night. They both seam to stick to the corner where the night lamp is located. I went to the pet store after work to get a ceramic heat bulb but they were out. I will try another store tomorrow. Right now we have 2 60 watt exo terra night glo heat lamps. We have 3 thermometers including an additional thermometer/hygrometer all throughout the tortoise house. The lowest temp reads 76 & the highest reads 97 during the day. At night they read 74-78. Today we added a humidity box & the humidity levels reached 70% but they don't seam to stay in there. Maybe they just need some time to get used to it. we are looking into getting another home setup for them to be separated. any tips on getting them to stay in the box while they sleep?

Do you think the clicking sound is also stress related or an indication of something else?
 

TurtleAsylum801

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I'm so sorry to hear about your little one Sibi. That does not sound good at all. I'm hoping that it is nothing as serious as what you have experienced. We keep our babies well hydrated & haven't noticed any change in their eating habits so I'm hoping that by separating them and getting them better habitats that they will change for the better. Thank you all for the information. It's nice knowing how many people care for our tortoises as much as we do.

Here are a few pics of our tortoises
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-58693.html#axzz2Atn9oeXC
 

TurtleAsylum801

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Update: I separated my two sulcata's and Dexter is doing much better. I haven't heard a squeak or click from her since I moved her into her own cage that is well heated & very humid. We are going to move both girls into a new enclosure today. We custom built two 2x4' cages with a plexy glass front for easy access. I can't wait to put them in their new homes so they can explore.
 
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