Sulcata Owner - Need Advice

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pookie126

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My 7 year old son has a fascination with turtles/tortoises and has been collecting anything turtle/tortoise related for around 3 years. My brother-in-law thought it would be cool to give him a tortoise, which after some quick research I discovered was a Sulcata. My brother-in-law bought it at a pet store and needless to say, when we got Gary he was in very bad shape. His eyes were glued shut, he would not eat, slept continuously, and had a soft shell. I immediately made him an appointment with my vet who told me at the very beginning that things looked grim, but we did everything we could, including daily injections, but unfortunately Gary died. My son was heartbroken. My brother-in-law felt horrible, so month later, he decided to get another Sulcata tortoise for my son - only this time from a breeder and one that was older and eating. My son has named him Perry.

Perry seems to be healthy - he has a voracious appetite, is very active - nothing like what we dealt with before. This is what lead me to this forum. I have been trying to do as much research as possible so that I provide Perry with the perfect environment as I can. We were told by the breeder that he is 3 years old. My vet feels that is accurate (he was at the vet the very next day after we got him). I am not good at constructing things, so I decided I would by a hard plastic kiddie pool as Perry's inside home. I had bought a sand substrate from the pet store, but from reading on here, I am seeing that maybe that was a wrong decision. I was unaware of the need for keeping the humidity up in his enclosure. Nothing I read online even mentioned this! So now I am considering cypress mulch which I see is recommended on here. I also read online about using clamp lights for heat and sunlight (when he is not outside) but I am seeing on here about burns and blindness caused by using them. Basically, I need all the advice I can get - I see I need a hide box (I have no idea how to make one of these).. what else do you recommend?

My son loves Perry and knows that he is going to be a lifelong pet of his that he will be passing on to his own children one day - he thinks it is cool. I want to ensure that I have everything just right. We have already dealt with 2 respiratory infections with him in the 5 months we've had him and I'm not sure if this is something I can prevent. We live in South Carolina - hot summers with lots of humidity and winters can get rather cool. Any advice is appreciated.....
 

Tom

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Give this a try to start with:

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-13375.html?highlight=basic+enclosure

At three years old, humidity is not as important to worry about as it is for a hatchling. Clamp lamps are not the cause of the eye problems you have heard about. Its those coil type compact flourescent bulbs.

I don't like sand, but some people use it as part of a mixture and like it. Cypress mulch is great, if you can get it there.

How big is he? Can you post a pic of him and his enclosure? Sulcatas are very hardy. If you've had 2 respiratory infections in 5 months something is wrong somewhere.

You've come to the right place for help. We've got lots of sulcata enthusiasts here and a lot of very experienced keepers.

Welcome to the forum!

I'll follow up on this thread in the morning. Off to bed now for me.
 

pookie126

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Thanks Tom for such a quick reply! I am so grateful to find this forum!!! We want to do everything right for Perry so that he is healthy and happy!

The respiratory infections have been of concern to us. The first one he had when we first got him - I knew when I saw the huge bubble coming out of his nose. We treated him for the second one again about a month later. It was over the winter and we had been airing out the house so I'm thinking maybe he got chilled, but I am not completely sure (definitely won't make that mistake again though). I am concerned about making sure we are providing enough heat for him though. I currently have 2 clamp lights hooked into the side of the kiddie pool with 2 60 watt bulbs in them. His enclosure is pretty bare other than a food "bowl". That's why I am so glad I found this place!

The picture is when we first got Perry 5 months ago. He has grown some since. I will try to take a picture of him and his enclosure tomorrow to post.... Thanks for your help!perry1.jpg
 
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Yvonne G

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Hi Pookie126:

Welcome to the forum!!

If its at all possible, Perry needs to be outside. He's plenty big enough to be an outdoor tortoise, and a little too big to be an indoor tortoise. You can just set up some cinderblocks, a quick and easy pen. A tortoise as big as Perry is needs way more space than you would be able to provide in the house. Even a 5 shelf book case laid on its back wouldn't be big enough. Of course, if you DO have him outside and he's only in the kiddie pool when you bring him in at night, then that's just fine. All you need is someplace in the pool for him to hide. For that matter, if he lives outside and only comes in at night, then a cardboard box instead of the pool would be ok. They just sleep at night and don't need any space.

Glad to have you as a new member here and hope to read of Perry's many adventures and see pictures as he grows!
 

Tom

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Good morning Pookie126. I'm glad you found us too. I'm a little OCD, so I like to do numbered lists. It helps me organize my thoughts and miss fewer details.

1. Tortoises need a place to hide. This can simply be an upside down box with an entrance hole cut into it, or something as elaborate as you want.

2. Substrate: You should be using something that can hold a little moisture. Contrary to the 15-20 year old care sheets found by a google search, we now know that even desert species need some humidity. It simulates the humid burrows that they would hang out in their native land. Cypress mulch works great, as does clean, plain soil, orchid bark, coco fiber, sphagnum peat moss or a combination of any of the above. I don't like sand, but some people like to mix some in.

3. Heat: The wattage and number of bulbs doesn't mean much. You need to know the temps. Get a thermometer with a remote probe. Here is a good time to mention what you may have already figured out. Most tortoise supplies are found at hardware stores, not pet stores. Put your remote temp probe in different areas of the enclosure and test your temps regularly. Sulcatas do not usually get respiratory problems. They are not prone to it. However, any tortoise can get one if they get chilled or just can't get warm enough for long enough. Here's some general temps to strive for. Night time, the whole room should stay 70ish. During the day, put your lights on a timer for 12-14 hours. The warm side of the enclosure should be 80-90. There should be a hot basking SPOT directly under the hottest part of the light, onto a flat rock of about 100-110. The cool side should stay somewhere around 70-80. Seasonal variations are fine, meaning if it gets warmer in the summer, that's fine. These are the minimum temps I'd recommend since you've already had a problem. Also, you need to use a flood bulb type of light and it needs to be mounted directly overhead, not clamped to the side at an angle. You adjust your basking temp by raising or lowering the bulb. I usually use 50-75 watt flood bulbs for this and adjust the height to get the desired temps.

4. Hydration: He should be getting a warm water soak several times a week. I usually use a dedicated tub for this purpose and use it for nothing else. 15-20 minutes is probably fine. He's past the point of preventing pyramiding, but it won't hurt to spray his shell down with plain water a time or two per day. Just make sure your temps are up before you start this.

5. Sunshine: As much as possible. Any day that is sunny and above 70, I'd have him outside. He needs a proper, safe outdoor enclosure for this and that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

6. Diet: He should be eating mostly grass and weeds. There are plenty of lists to help you identify which ones are good. Add in some mulberry, grape, rose, and hibiscus leaves, flowers of safe plants, spineless cactus and some Mazuri tortoise chow once in a while won't hurt either. He might start to go for some bermuda grass hay now too. You can find this at any horse supply store. Little ones won't usually won't eat it, but as they grow, they eat it more and more. I keep the store bought greens to a minimum. I almost never use any veggies or fruit. Once in a while won't hurt them, but they don't need it.

7. Supplements: This is a matter of debate and preference. Some people use none, while others use it every day. I use calcium once or twice a week for one the size of Perry. I'd use vitamins once every week or two. You can also leave cuttle bones lying around and let him choose when to supplement his own calcium. If he is getting regular sunshine, I would avoid using any D3 in your calcium powder.

This should give you plenty to think about for now, but for later, you do know how big and destructive they get, right? In the next couple of years, or so, you will need to build him a very large, very stout, permanent outdoor pen with a properly heated shelter of some sort. They can easily get over 100 pounds and totally destroy a normal back yard.
 

TortieGal

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Just wanted to add, when you set up his outside area make sure he will be safe from predators. Keep a screen over the top. I had an opossum walk right across the drive way about 20 feet from me yesterday in the middle of the day. Ratcoons will kill a tortoise two, even a very large one.
Perry and your son are very cute!
 

tortoisenerd

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Great advice given here already so I juest wanted to say welcome to the group and congrats on the tort! With the suspected respiratory infections, were there any symptoms besides one bubble each time? Was the bubble after a bath/soak by chance? Respiratory infections tend to happen with torts are stressed, or have other issues going on. I would get the tort a fecal test for parasites if you have not done so already. So glad to hear you went immediately to get a vet check up! I think proper vet care is a great investment.

Agree, temperatures are very important. Invest in a good thermometer. I like the PE1 infrared thermometer--only $30 on Ebay or similar. You just aim at the substrate surface and hit the button and it will display the temp, unlike using a probe thermometer which can take up to 20 minutes to give one reading. For hides, a tupperware or cardboard box will do fine. Also make the substrate as deep as you can without allowing him to climb out. These torts love to dig, and he may even decide to burrow to sleep instead of using a hide (as long as you provide at least one in each temperature zone, it is fine if they burrow to sleep). Because of the burrowing aspect, you will need to watch out for that with any outdoor enclosure. Eventually you want some sort of fence that is dug down deep, as even in one day while you are gone he could burrow under something.

Give this a read: http://turtlerescues.com/sulcata_challenge.htm

I would use a slate tile (< $2 for a 12 in. by 12 in. tile at home improvement stores) not a bowl for food so he has space to eat and doesn't have to climb in the bowl. But, ideally you want to have a chemical-free yard of grass and weeds for him to graze on so you never have to feed him. You can buy seeds for graze online and scatter them, such as a variety of grass, weeds, and broad leaf plants. Some yummy but healthy tort treat foods are pumpkin, butternut squash, and cactus pads. How big of a yard do you have? Many people run into the problem that in even a week or two the tort eats all the yard! You also need a large shallow water dish, big enough for him to get into and soak, in a depth that it is where the plastron and carapace (halves of the shell) meet, but he doesn't have to hold his head out of the water. Test he can get in and out of it safely, and there is enough space for him to walk around it (don't place it near a wall as they don't know their own size and if there is any space near it they will try to walk next to it!). Some water dish ideas are plant saucers, a deep plate, paint tray, etc. Just check that the tort cannot step on the edge and flip it over. Even if you never see the tort use it (and then you should be soaking it at least 1-2 times a week for 15-20 minutes), it is important to have it available. Even fake plants (I like to go to Michael's craft store and use coupons from the newspaper or online) can make hides, as can cardboard boxes and tupperware. Even a flower pot on its side sunk into the substrate is great. I think most pet stores sell junk I would never use; I do most of my shopping at home improvement stores and online. Also, beware of advice you get from people who mean well but don't have updated information such as you get on this forum.

If he is getting out at least 5/7 days a week for sun, then you are fine with only regular bulbs not UVB bulbs. If not, then buy a 100 Watt T-Rex Mercury Vapor bulb with a wide and deep hood fixture with a ceramic socket, and a lamp stand so you can adjust the height up and down. Have the bulb face parallel to the substrate. Other times of year if you are bringing him in for night and your house doesn't stay above 60 F, then have a ceramic heat emitter for extra heat. Please be very careful to have a secure outdoor enclosure. Even 100 lb torts can get attacked to death by predators if there is not secure fencing. At this age, you still need a screened top over the enclosure, such as using hardware cloth (a wide mesh that still lets UVB rays in but keeps predators out).

Best of luck! I know at the beginning this is overwhelming, but I can tell from your post how much you care about this tort and want him to be a healthy and long-living pet for your son.
 

pookie126

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Thanks so much for all of your replies!! So much information, I'm not really sure where to start.

When we first got the first Sulcata tortoise, I realized how large they got, so I am aware that he is going to be well over 100 pounds. Honestly I thought he was still too small to be outside all of the time. My husband has made him somewhat of a playpen out in the yard where he planted a variety of greens for Perry to munch on. Perry is taken out Monday-Friday (weather permitting) after I get home from work until it gets dark. On Saturday and Sunday, he is usually out all day, as long as one of us is home to keep an eye on him (we have a Siberian Husky in a pen that looks at him as if he were a chew toy and I do worry that he may dig out and get to him). We are definitely going to need to start looking into building him a suitable permanent outdoor area. As far as that goes - what would we do for heat over the winter months for him. South Carolina isn't one of the coldest states, but we do have temps dropping in the 20's and 30's quite frequently...

As for his inside enclosure, I will definitely do some revamping. I am trying to compile a list of materials for my husband so he can hit the local Lowes and get me what I need. I want to thank everyone for their help and welcome anymore advice anyone has to offer....
 

tortoisenerd

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Ideally in the long term, you would want to build a large insulated heated shed for him, something like 10 by 10 ft, so the days it is too cold for him to go outside he can be fairly happy with the amount of space. If you insulate it well, you will minimize the amount of heat you use from bulbs like a ceramic heat emitter or red light heat bulb, or when he is over 50 lb or so, a pig blanket (heavy duty plastic square that he sits on that is warm, but you also provide a place for him to get off of it). While the tort is smaller, you can use a dog igloo with a flap over it and put a heat bulb in for the colder months hooked up to a rheostat to keep the temperature about 60F. When building an outdoor enclosure, I'd consider making a sloped concrete water dish that you can flood to clean out or similar, as that might be easier than dealing with a water dish. Glad to hear you planted greens for him! Are you keeping the yard chemical-free? I think he is big enough to stay outside full time as long as you can keep him warm enough and safe from predators.
 

pookie126

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Perry's "play pen" area is completely chemical free. My main concern at putting him outside full time right now is if my Husky decides to get out (as he is famous for doing) and I am not there. I really need to sit down and layout exactly what we are going to do for Perry in the near future. Things would have been simpler 2 1/2 years ago before we moved to a subdivision and lived on 6 acres of land - he would have had a huge habitat. We will make do with what we have though. I have access to my sister's greenhouse, so I can plant all kinds of greens over the winter for him to munch on.

I am not the typical pet owner who is going to give him away because he is gets too big or gets too large... my husband can vouch for that. I am learning so much from you all - I wish I could give something back... if anyone needs advice on exotics, I am very experienced with a variety of them although I only own a few at the moment (do not have the time to give them the attention they all need). Chinchillas, hedgehogs, squirrels, rabbits, snakes, opossum, birds, etc... I've had a variety!
 

tortoisenerd

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If the dog is getting out of his pen then I think that needs to be re-enforced. How does he get out? We're used to dealing with escape-artist torts here so we may be able to come up with some suggestions.
 

pookie126

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Lobo is a digger, so that is escape route number one.... and I mean huge trenches in a matter of minutes. He has also been known to climb fences... He is usually content as long as nothing catches his eye. But the moment he sees anything out of the ordinary, such as a cute little tortoise walking nearby - he goes crazy and begins trench digging, climbing at the fence - he has even lifted the fence panels up before... trying to go underneath. He's a crazy dog....
 
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Maggie Cummings

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Hi and welcome...As soon as you said Siberian Husky all the red flags came up. They SO love to chew on tortoises. You really really need to protect Perry from Lobo. I am very experienced with dogs chewing tortoises and it's an awful thing. Lobo will or has the capacity to kill Perry. Sulcata live with lions and know how to protect themselves against the large teeth of a lion, but a husky has a long jaw and very sharp teeth so you really need to create a Lobo proof pen for Perry.
You can create a nice pen for Perry using cinder blocks. That's what I used for Bob until I was stacking them 3 high and he was knocking them over and escaping up the street. Soon you will need to create a shed with insulation and the equipment for Perry to care for himself. Bob has a shed that is 12X20. He has a 260 watt Trex basking light and a sleeping box with a pig blanket in it and every evening at 6PM Bob goes in his shed and basks until 7 then he goes into his sleeping box until he gets up at 9am. I will attach a picture of Bob in his box so you can get an idea of what you will need to do in a couple of years...
I won't beat you over the head with the dog thing, but I do like that you are aware of a potential problem...

6i44du.jpg


I am having a problem with tiny pics so I am going to be satisfied with this one picture. This is Bob's sleeping box, there is a pig blanket in the corner and he sleeps on it every night. We live in the PacificNorthWest so he spends a lot of time in a cold rain and he has never had an URTI. So I am wondering why Perry has had 2. Could he be kept in too dry a situation? Dryness will also make them have snot bubbles. If he is not set up with basking lights and substrate he may be too cool over too long of a time and the dryness will cause bubbles. So now you know what he needs...he will be better after you get him set up correctly...
 

pookie126

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Mu husband and I are already designing the plans for Perry's outside oasis - and we are going to make it "Lobo Proof". I am glad to see that someone understands a Husky's playful but destructive behavior. I would never think of getting rid of Lobo as he was a rescue himself (owner was about to take him to the pound as a young pup because of his chewing), but I want to do everything I can to prtect Perry as well. We had Lobo on a runner that gave him access to the entire backyard prior to getting Perry, and decided on a large pen when Perry arrived.

Exactly what is a pig blanket and where can I find one?

As far as the upper respiratory infections - I think you may be on to something. I had been using a sand type substrate (after closer inspection it is actually ground walnut shells) as his substrate prior to finding this forum, not even aware of the need for any humidity. That, and the combination of not having proper heating in his enclosure ( I was lead to believe he just needed a warm place in his enclosure, not a constant temperature throughout with a "hotspot") I am so thankful for finding this forum!
 
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Maggie Cummings

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Mike has given you a couple of links to pig blankets. They are a farrowing pad used to keep newborn piglets and their Mama warm after birthing. You will also need a thermostat like this one...

http://www.osborne-ind.com/petsub/heatpad/heat_pad_controls.htm

I use the power control F911 for Bob. I have used this same mat and the control for 5 years now. They really last a very long time. This way you can control the temp of the pad and your tort won't get burned.
So now maybe you are thinking that Perry has been kept too dry and that's the reason for his snot bubbles? I have seen that a lot with Sulcata so I do hope it's true for you also...
 

chadk

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In your climate, if your budget is tight, this is the approach i'd take.

Pri 1 - get a dog proof pen built outside. This will be something that will keep the tort inside (they can dig and push and climb more than you might expect), and keep a determined dog or other animal out.

Pri 2 - the tort shed. In your climate, your tort is going to be able to be outdoors year round. There will be days where he will choose to stay inside, but even if it is cold and rainy, he will want to get out and graze and get some exercise. Even if it is only for 5 to 10 mins. So I would say your tort does not need a huge shed like those who live where their tort will be trapped in the shed for weeks or months at a time.

Here in western WA my 2 larger sulcatas have access to their large yard to graze and exercise 24x7 all year long. They have the choice to brave the cold in the winter or not. They share a shed that is only 4x8 and it seems to be doing fine for them. I dont' have pig blankets for them. I use CHE (ceramic heat emitters) and \ or red heat lamps. I also have a space heater that keeps the ambient temp in the 70's and warmer near the lamps. So they can head out to graze in cold wet days and return to take a nap and digest under the lamps.

Some folks in warmer climates have luck with those dogloo dog houses with a single CHE added to provide some heat during the winter. Others use plastic deck boxes with a door cut out. Or a simple wood structure could be created as you would a dog house.

I chose to make mine out of wood (essentially a large dog house) with no floor on one end that allows them access to dirt for digging. They seem to like digging and flinging dirt on their backs to sleep. Being able to dig also gives them exercise and something to do on those really cold days so they don't get too frustrated or bored.
 

pookie126

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We had a visit with the vet with Perry today (he had a scheduled check up). No signs of any respiratory infections!!!! I love Dr. Foy - he is an exceptional vet and actually takes care of all the tortoises at the zoo - so I took up a lot of his time this afternoon sharing what I had learned on the forum and asking his opinion. He cannot pinpoint exactly what caused the respiratory infections, but Perry had the first one when I first got him, so we do know any of his living conditions prior to my having him. He also said that due to the fact that when I brought him back for his followup after that, and he was treated for the second infection, we do not know for sure if it was a recurrence or if the antibiotics were not strong enough the first time (thus the reason he gave a stronger antibiotic the second go round). He is in agreement with setting Perry up outside in a dog proof area and is applauding the advice I am getting on this forum!!! He wishes more of his patients owners were getting the sound advice I am getting! He is arranging for me to shadow him to the zoo to see how the habitats for the tortoises are set up to give me some ideas as well.

Thanks for all the links - I will check them out!
 
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