Strange behavior

NurseJ

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Hello everyone,
I have a Sulcata about 3 mo the old. I e been noticing he is doing a strange behavior when soaking. Normally he just relaxes or walks around in warm water no problem. But occasionally he pushes up as high as possible on his front legs his head drawn all the way in and doesn’t use his back legs. He wobbled around just using his front legs but not really going anywhere. One time he did this he actually got his head stick so far in he almost drown. I put very shallow water in with him but i can’t figure out why he’s “straining.” I don’t know if he’s annoyed/hurting/wants out? He poops and pees fine. I do worry about a kidney stone causing some kind of pain. Thoughts? Anyone seen anything like this? I wanted to get a picture but usually I’m freaking out when it happens.
 

Toddrickfl1

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I was going to say the warm water is arousing him but I just noticed he's only 3 months. So not sure what that could be. Hopefully someone here can help ya. Try to get a video.
 

Yvonne G

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I'll bet it's a male, just like Toddrick thought
 

dmmj

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I agree probably a male getting an early start. Prepare for a posdible flashing soon
 

NurseJ

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I was going to say the warm water is arousing him but I just noticed he's only 3 months. So not sure what that could be. Hopefully someone here can help ya. Try to get a video.
So one time he did this he got his head stuck behind his legs. Then out of nowhere died... i mean not moving breathing everything was limp, went pale, the whole 9 yards. I did a little cpr on his shell as he’s very small and he did come to after about 20 seconds. Since then if i see him acting like that i make sure he’s not in the water I’m afraid he may drown somehow? I have no clue what his/her deal is. Since then it’s happened twice more minus getting its head stuck and death ‍♀️
 

Michael231

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This is an interesting case...

When you say he died, how did you perform CPR? There is a way to do it on tortoises and turtles, but if you pressed on his shell gently, if he was actually entering a state of death, that shouldn't have brought him back to life.

Tortoises don't actually have a diaphragm, the muscular tissue that separates our abdomen from our chest and helps us inhale and exhale. For a tortoise to inhale and exhale it must move its front legs. Specific movement causes a muscle called the musculus transversus (the turtles diaphragm) to contract and push all of the organs below the lungs (a tortoises lungs are located near the top of the shell) against the lungs to force air out. In a different sequence of the limbs moving, a different muscle called the musculus obliquus abdominis is lowered allowing for air to be inhaled.

Given that the legs of a tortoise are responsible for contracting and expanding the lungs, it is unlikely your tortoise died, rather something else is likely going on.

I'm curious what others have to say about this case, it sounds to me like it might just be a young tortoise being a young tortoise, but the "dying" episodes in the water are concerning.

How long have you been experiencing his odd behaviors while soaking him? Is this new, or has it been occurring for awhile.
 

NurseJ

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This is an interesting case...

When you say he died, how did you perform CPR? There is a way to do it on tortoises and turtles, but if you pressed on his shell gently, if he was actually entering a state of death, that shouldn't have brought him back to life.

Tortoises don't actually have a diaphragm, the muscular tissue that separates our abdomen from our chest and helps us inhale and exhale. For a tortoise to inhale and exhale it must move its front legs. Specific movement causes a muscle called the musculus transversus (the turtles diaphragm) to contract and push all of the organs below the lungs (a tortoises lungs are located near the top of the shell) against the lungs to force air out. In a different sequence of the limbs moving, a different muscle called the musculus obliquus abdominis is lowered allowing for air to be inhaled.

Given that the legs of a tortoise are responsible for contracting and expanding the lungs, it is unlikely your tortoise died, rather something else is likely going on.

I'm curious what others have to say about this case, it sounds to me like it might just be a young tortoise being a young tortoise, but the "dying" episodes in the water are concerning.

How long have you been experiencing his odd behaviors while soaking him? Is this new, or has it been occurring for awhile.
Ok so to be specific i kind of just pressed on his shell and then I’d turn him upside down by his back legs then back upright by his front legs. I did wonder if a tortoise can pass out. Maybe from stress? It’s been a new thing happening over the last I’d say month. Only if he’s soaking. The water is never hot or cold. He will lounge and walk around then all the sudden he starts. I’m wondering if he has a kidney stone/bladder stone and when it moves it causes a pain? He always is making noise but sometimes he acts like something really hurts him? Peeing and pooping fine. It’s eating fine. I have no clue. Maybe I’m paranoid but I’m so afraid of it happening again. I’ve shortened his soaks to a few minutes. I do see him drink from his water dish too.
 

Michael231

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Interesting

There are three types of fainting (cardiac, orthostatic, and relfexive). In the animal kingdom, humans are the only animals that appear to display all of them. To my knowledge, cardiac fainting is the only type that can be experienced by different animals. Even then, due to tortoises ability to decrease their blood pressure and survive in anoxic (no oxygen) conditions for short periods of time (such as during brumation (hibernation)) it is more likely the animal would die before it would faint. In humans, cardiac fainting can be caused by various factors classically caused by cardiac arrhythmia or some type of embolism or blockage in an artery. Due to the ability of tortoises to deal with drops in blood pressure and cardiac output, they would not faint in a matter of seconds if at all.

Reflexive fainting, or "stress" fainting is only seen in humans and potentially in sharks (that display potential "tonic immobility", yet it is debated whether this is the case) where a sudden drop in blood pressure causes loss of oxygen to the brain. We don't truly know chemically what causes it, but it doesn't occur in tortoises, or any reptiles.

Next time you witness him doing this odd serious of events, could you record it and send it to the forum? It's hard to say what it could be, like everyone above is saying it is very possible he is just getting aroused. I would say a bladder or kidney stone is very unlikely, as it takes much time for these to form, and being only three months old this is not likely enough time.

What do you feed him? and how often? For any type of urolith or nephrolith to form he would have had to accumulated excessive compounds that have calcified.
 

NurseJ

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Interesting

There are three types of fainting (cardiac, orthostatic, and relfexive). In the animal kingdom, humans are the only animals that appear to display all of them. To my knowledge, cardiac fainting is the only type that can be experienced by different animals. Even then, due to tortoises ability to decrease their blood pressure and survive in anoxic (no oxygen) conditions for short periods of time (such as during brumation (hibernation)) it is more likely the animal would die before it would faint. In humans, cardiac fainting can be caused by various factors classically caused by cardiac arrhythmia or some type of embolism or blockage in an artery. Due to the ability of tortoises to deal with drops in blood pressure and cardiac output, they would not faint in a matter of seconds if at all.

Reflexive fainting, or "stress" fainting is only seen in humans and potentially in sharks (that display potential "tonic immobility", yet it is debated whether this is the case) where a sudden drop in blood pressure causes loss of oxygen to the brain. We don't truly know chemically what causes it, but it doesn't occur in tortoises, or any reptiles.

Next time you witness him doing this odd serious of events, could you record it and send it to the forum? It's hard to say what it could be, like everyone above is saying it is very possible he is just getting aroused. I would say a bladder or kidney stone is very unlikely, as it takes much time for these to form, and being only three months old this is not likely enough time.

What do you feed him? and how often? For any type of urolith or nephrolith to form he would have had to accumulated excessive compounds that have calcified.
Thank you so much for any insight. I’ve been seriously worried. He/she seems fine but it’s odd. I will have to keep my phone around. To be honest i have not posted a photo or video to this forum I’ll have to find out how to do that. I see what you’re saying about the fainting. Just to my unprofessional opinion it seems dead. If it had not started getting pale and all of its body part relaxed and hung limp I’d think otherwise? Either way i just have been trying to not stress the little thing too much.

I feed organic spring mix. A few times a week one or two cubes of butternut squash squished up with some calcium or vitamin. I think it’s too soon as it shows no interest in Timothy hay. I do sprinkle finely cut lawn plants like grass and plantain or dandelion (sparingly) over the spring mix for variety.
 

Michael231

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Always happy to give my opinion!

It sounds like the diet is pretty good. A mixed variety of greens, grasses, and calcium. Unless you're dumping way too much calcium powder on the food (which I doubt you are) than I'd say a bladder or kidney stone is unlikely...Maybe someone else could come up with another reason one might form, but given the short amount of time you have had him, and what seems to be a good diet, I find that possibility slim.

To upload a photo you should be able to upload a file. When you reply to this thread look to the bottom right of the text box and a tab labeled "upload a file" should appear. From there, take the photo (you'll have to upload it to your phone or computer) and follow the steps to get it on here.

I totally understand being worried about him! You came to the right place!
 
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