Spur-thigh care questions

Ember909

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Joined
Nov 2, 2020
Messages
56
Location (City and/or State)
California
Hi! This is my first post here, so I'm new to the forum. Any help would be awesome. I am thinking of getting a Greek spur-thighed tortoise, and was wondering about some aspects of the environment that it needs. I have a lot of questions, help on any of them would be great.

I live in northern California, so it gets pretty chilly in the winter, and sometimes even on summer nights. So I plan to have it in a large vivarium indoors, which I'm going to build. Any general tips would be appreciated, but there are a number of specific things that I don't know. Sorry in advance for the upcoming barrage of questions.

I've come across many different ideas for how much space they need. The tortoise will likely be 8 inches long or so. Currently, my plan for the vivarium is 8x2 feet. Is that big enough?

According to others on this forum, the ambient temperature should be 75-85 Fahrenheit (at least I assume they meant Fahrenheit). My house, though, is usually about 70. Is this okay? Should we add a small heater or something to the vivarium?

For the flooring substrate, how deep should it be? Just an inch of two, or deep enough for the tort to burrow? If the latter, will I be able to tell where is is if it burrowed?

How many air vents are needed? Is it good to have more vents farther from the heater, to help with the temperature gradient?

Should the hot end of the vivarium be 90 Fahrenheit, or closer to 95?

I know that tortoises don't like side-facing windows, are they okay with a clear roof?

What's the minimum temperature it should be for them to go outside safely?

What's the best diet to keep them on?

Do they need any vitamins, other than calcium?

Is controlled humidity important?

If its wandering the yard, are there plants that it can or shouldn't eat?

That's everything, and as I said before, answers to any of these would be a huge help.
 

KarenSoCal

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Hi! This is my first post here, so I'm new to the forum. Any help would be awesome. I am thinking of getting a Greek spur-thighed tortoise, and was wondering about some aspects of the environment that it needs. I have a lot of questions, help on any of them would be great.

I live in northern California, so it gets pretty chilly in the winter, and sometimes even on summer nights. So I plan to have it in a large vivarium indoors, which I'm going to build. Any general tips would be appreciated, but there are a number of specific things that I don't know. Sorry in advance for the upcoming barrage of questions.

I've come across many different ideas for how much space they need. The tortoise will likely be 8 inches long or so. Currently, my plan for the vivarium is 8x2 feet. Is that big enough?

According to others on this forum, the ambient temperature should be 75-85 Fahrenheit (at least I assume they meant Fahrenheit). My house, though, is usually about 70. Is this okay? Should we add a small heater or something to the vivarium?

For the flooring substrate, how deep should it be? Just an inch of two, or deep enough for the tort to burrow? If the latter, will I be able to tell where is is if it burrowed?

How many air vents are needed? Is it good to have more vents farther from the heater, to help with the temperature gradient?

Should the hot end of the vivarium be 90 Fahrenheit, or closer to 95?

I know that tortoises don't like side-facing windows, are they okay with a clear roof?

What's the minimum temperature it should be for them to go outside safely?

What's the best diet to keep them on?

Do they need any vitamins, other than calcium?

Is controlled humidity important?

If its wandering the yard, are there plants that it can or shouldn't eat?

That's everything, and as I said before, answers to any of these would be a huge help.

Hello, and welcome to the forum! I'm going to link some threads for you to read and many of your questions will be answered.

After carefully reading all this, come back with questions and we'll help you.


4 elements of heating: By Tom
There are four elements to heating and lighting:

Basking bulb. I use 65 watt floods from the hardware store. I run them on a timer and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb.

Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. You'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT.

Light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish.

UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. If you want it anyway, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html

Plants for enclosure:
Pothos, Spider Plant, Boston Fern, Prayer Plant

Compiled by Tom:
Good foods for tortoises are "chicories," types of lettuce that are likely to be on the far side of the more common floppy green heads of lettuce most people buy. Anything labeled as simply "chicory" is good, as are radiccio, frisee, escarole, and endive; you might even find something labeled as dandelions. You may find a bag of "Spring" or "Spicy" mix that is good, just check the label to be sure it has some of the chicories I just mentioned. The leaves (just the leaves) of turnips and radishes are also good, as are carrot tops. Collards, mustard greens, bok choy, and other dark, leafy greens are okay as well. If you have any kind of Mexican/hispanic market near you, they will sell cactus, labeled "nopales." Cactus is a great food to rotate in the diet, as it is high in calcium.

You don't need to feed all of these at one time, just make sure your tortoise is getting access to different types of food. As you get more experienced, you can find the better types of food listed on the care sheets.

Here are a whole bunch of non-grocery store suggestions.

Mulberry leaves
Grape vine leaves
Hibiscus leaves
African hibiscus leaves
Blue hibiscus leaves
Rose of Sharon leaves
Rose leaves
Geraniums
Gazanias
Nasturtium
Lavatera
Pansies
Petunias
Hostas
Honeysuckle
Cape honeysuckle
Leaves and blooms from any squash plant, like pumpkin, cucumber, summer squash, etc...
Young spineless opuntia cactus pads

Weeds:

There are soooooooo many...
Dandelion
Mallow
Filaree
Smooth Sow thistle
Prickly Sow thistle
Milk thistle
Goat head weed
Cats ear
Nettles
Trefoil
Wild onion
Wild mustard
Wild Garlic
Clovers
Broadleaf plantain
Narrow leaf plantain
Chick weed
Hawksbit
Hensbit
Hawksbeard

Other good stuff:


"Testudo Seed Mix" from http://www.tortoisesupply.com/SeedMixes

Pasture mixes or other seeds from http://www.groworganic.com/seeds.html

Homegrown alfalfa

Mazuri Tortoise Chow

ZooMed Grassland Tortoise Food

Ones that you can buy in every store:
Arugula
Lambs lettuce
Chicory
Kale
Mustard greens
Organic kohlrabi leafs
Organic carrot leafs
Organic radish leafs
Dandelions
Radiccio


Their main diet should be broad leaf weeds, succulents and grasses. Store bought foods are okay, but not the best. Collards and dandelions are a good food, but neither should be used every day. Check out the plant ID section for lots of ideas on weeds to feed. You can get spineless opuntia cactus pads from most Mexican grocery stores, or grow them yourself. You can also easily grow grape leaves, african hibiscus, regular hibiscus (if it will survive in your area), and mulberry leaves. You can try red apple, ice plant, and jade plant too. Also look into Gazania, pansies, nasturtiums, carnations, geraniums and many others. At the grocery store, favor endive and escarole, but also use cilantro, carrot tops, mustard and turnip greens, bok choy, radiccio, swiss chard, watercress, parsley, all the lettuces, etc. Lots of variety is best. There are also tortoise "weed" seed mixes that you can grow. I like the "Testudo Mix" from Tortoisesupply.com.
Buckwheat; cactus; vetch; Mohave aster; creosote bush; desert four o’clock; tacoma stans; bladderpod; globe mallow; goldenhead; burro weed; so many things!


Feeding:
So much contradictory info on this subject. Its simple. What do they eat in the wild. Grass, weeds, leaves, flowers, and succulents. Feed them a huge variety of these things, and you'll have a healthy tortoise. All of these species are very adaptable when it comes to diet and there is a very large margin of error, and many ways to do it right. What if you don't have this sort of "natural" tortoise food available for part of each year because you are in the snow? You will have no choice but to buy grocery store food. What's wrong with grocery store food? It tends to lack fiber, some items are low in calcium or have a poor calcium to phosphorous ratio, and some items have deleterious compounds in them. All of these short comings can be improved with some simple supplementation and amendments. A pinch of calcium two times per week will help fix that problem. You can also leave cuttle bone in the enclosure, so your tortoise can self-regulate its own calcium intake. What about fiber? Soaked horse hay pellets, soaked ZooMed Grassland pellets, Mazuri tortoise chow, "Salad style", "Herbal Hay" both from @TylerStewart and his lovely wife Sarah at Tortoisesupply.com, or many of the dried plants and leaves available from Will @Kapidolo Farms. If you must use grocery store foods, favor endive and escarole as your main staples. Add in arugula, cilantro, kale, collard, mustard and turnip greens, squash leaves, spring mix, romaine, green or red leaf lettuce, butter lettuce, water cress, carrot tops, celery tops, bok choy, and whatever other greens you can find. If you mix in some of the aforementioned amendments, these grocery store foods will offer plenty of variety and fiber and be able to meet your tortoises nutritional needs just fine. I find it preferable to grab a few grapevine or mulberry leaves, or a handful of mallow and clover, or some broadleaf plantain leaves and some grass, but with the right additions, grocery store stuff is fine too. Grow your own stuff, or find it around you when possible. Tyler and Sarah also sell a fantastic Testudo seed mix that is great for ALL tortoise species and also super easy to grow in pots, trays, raised garden beds, or in outdoor tortoise enclosures. When that isn't possible, add a wide variety of good stuff to your grocery store greens to make them better.

Supplements:
I recommend you keep cuttle bone available all the time. Some never use it and some munch on it regularly. Some of mine will go months without touching it, and then suddenly eat the whole thing in a day or two. Sulcatas and leopards grow a lot. This requires a tremendous amount of calcium assimilation over time. A great diet is paramount, but it is still a good idea to give them some extra calcium regularly. I use a tiny pinch of RepCal or ZooMed plain old calcium carbonate twice a week. Much discussion has been given to whether or not they need D3 in their calcium supplement. Personally, I don't think it matters. Every tortoise should be getting adequate UV exposure one way or another, so they should be able to make their own D3. I also like to use a mineral supplement. "MinerAll" is my current brand of choice. It seems to help those tortoises that like to swallow pebbles and rocks. It is speculated that some tortoise eat rocks or substrate due to a mineral deficiency or imbalance. Whatever the reason, "MinerAll" seems to stop it or prevent it. Finally, I like to use a reptile vitamin supplement once a week, to round out any hidden deficiencies that may be in my diet over the course of a year.
 

Ember909

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Joined
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Messages
56
Location (City and/or State)
California
Thank you, that's exceedingly helpful. However (sorry I didn't mention this before) the sub-species I'm planning on, the Tunisian, generally dwells in arid climates. What changes to the setup would you recommend for that? Thank you so much for all the help and patience.
 

Ember909

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Messages
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Location (City and/or State)
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Sorry, correction, I'm almost certainly not getting that type, because of their low tolerance to cool temperatures. Don't bother answering that question.
 

TeamZissou

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Albuquerque, NM
Be sure to read this care guide in addition to the one Karen posted:

 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
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Sorry, correction, I'm almost certainly not getting that type, because of their low tolerance to cool temperatures. Don't bother answering that question.
Care and temps for all the Testudo are similar. Cool nights. Warm days with a basking area. Outdoors when weather permits. Etc...
 

Ember909

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Great, thanks! I'm still a bit confused about humidity tolerance, though. Are they okay in 50% humidity or not? Do they do best with more or less? Thank you all for your patience.
 

Tom

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Great, thanks! I'm still a bit confused about humidity tolerance, though. Are they okay in 50% humidity or not? Do they do best with more or less? Thank you all for your patience.
Babies of all species need more humidity. In the wild, they would find or create their own little humid microclimates, even when ambient humidity at a weather station 2 meters above the ground out in the open says its dry there. Most of the care info that you find out in the world from "experts", breeders, vets, and all over the internet continue to reflect this old wrong info. The more "research" you do, the more confusing it gets because so many sources all parrot the same wrong info that has been parroted for decades and for the same wrong reasons.

You get out of that cycle by reading and sticking to all the info Karen linked for you in post number 2 above. All species benefit from moderate humidity. For Testudo or DTs, I don't get too hung up on the number. Partially covered tops, deep damp substrate, humid hides, lots of plants and hiding areas and daily soaks will keep them healthy and growing smoothly.
 

Ember909

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Interesting, so the top should be partial... didn't know that. Any suggestions on keeping the substrate damp? Should it be deep enough that the tort (I'm planning on a smallish one) can completely submerge itself to get more moisture?
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
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Interesting, so the top should be partial... didn't know that. Any suggestions on keeping the substrate damp? Should it be deep enough that the tort (I'm planning on a smallish one) can completely submerge itself to get more moisture?
Yes. 3-4 inches of substate is good.
 

SweetGreekTorts

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Thank you, that's exceedingly helpful. However (sorry I didn't mention this before) the sub-species I'm planning on, the Tunisian, generally dwells in arid climates. What changes to the setup would you recommend for that? Thank you so much for all the help and patience.
The Tunisian is one if the more fragile subspecies of Greek Tortoise, so you will need to be extra careful about its environment. Too high humidity will result in respiratory infections, so drier substrate is preferred, with nice warm enclosure temperatures. There is some subspecies-specific information on my website. https://sweetgreektorts.com/nabeulensis

Also, the nabeulensis is rare in the United States and won't be easy to find. I've been on the Wait List with Garden State Tortoise for about 3 years now for some hatchlings. Just a heads up!
 

Ember909

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Messages
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Location (City and/or State)
California
The Tunisian is one if the more fragile subspecies of Greek Tortoise, so you will need to be extra careful about its environment. Too high humidity will result in respiratory infections, so drier substrate is preferred, with nice warm enclosure temperatures. There is some subspecies-specific information on my website. https://sweetgreektorts.com/nabeulensis

Also, the nabeulensis is rare in the United States and won't be easy to find. I've been on the Wait List with Garden State Tortoise for about 3 years now for some hatchlings. Just a heads up!
Thanks for letting me know, I've already decided against that species because of exactly the reasons you mentioned.
 

SweetGreekTorts

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Thanks for letting me know, I've already decided against that species because of exactly the reasons you mentioned.
I highly recommend the Ibera Greek subspecies. They are very hardy and can tolerate cooler temps. They do brumate during the winter as well, should you choose to let them. They are also more plentiful to find during breeding season.
 

Ember909

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Messages
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I highly recommend the Ibera Greek subspecies. They are very hardy and can tolerate cooler temps. They do brumate during the winter as well, should you choose to let them. They are also more plentiful to find during breeding season.
Thanks, I appreciate the suggestion, I'll keep that in mind. Right now, I'm leaning toward a Golden Greek, because they're smaller but also fairly cold resistant, and still relatively easy to obtain.
 

SweetGreekTorts

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Thanks, I appreciate the suggestion, I'll keep that in mind. Right now, I'm leaning toward a Golden Greek, because they're smaller but also fairly cold resistant, and still relatively easy to obtain.
The Mesopotamians do well in some cooler temps as long as they stay dry. Just remember they don't brumate. Beautiful subspecies indeed!
 

SJTort

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Hello, and welcome to the forum! I'm going to link some threads for you to read and many of your questions will be answered.

After carefully reading all this, come back with questions and we'll help you.


4 elements of heating: By Tom
There are four elements to heating and lighting:

Basking bulb. I use 65 watt floods from the hardware store. I run them on a timer and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb.

Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. You'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT.

Light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish.

UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. If you want it anyway, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html

Plants for enclosure:
Pothos, Spider Plant, Boston Fern, Prayer Plant

Compiled by Tom:
Good foods for tortoises are "chicories," types of lettuce that are likely to be on the far side of the more common floppy green heads of lettuce most people buy. Anything labeled as simply "chicory" is good, as are radiccio, frisee, escarole, and endive; you might even find something labeled as dandelions. You may find a bag of "Spring" or "Spicy" mix that is good, just check the label to be sure it has some of the chicories I just mentioned. The leaves (just the leaves) of turnips and radishes are also good, as are carrot tops. Collards, mustard greens, bok choy, and other dark, leafy greens are okay as well. If you have any kind of Mexican/hispanic market near you, they will sell cactus, labeled "nopales." Cactus is a great food to rotate in the diet, as it is high in calcium.

You don't need to feed all of these at one time, just make sure your tortoise is getting access to different types of food. As you get more experienced, you can find the better types of food listed on the care sheets.

Here are a whole bunch of non-grocery store suggestions.

Mulberry leaves
Grape vine leaves
Hibiscus leaves
African hibiscus leaves
Blue hibiscus leaves
Rose of Sharon leaves
Rose leaves
Geraniums
Gazanias
Nasturtium
Lavatera
Pansies
Petunias
Hostas
Honeysuckle
Cape honeysuckle
Leaves and blooms from any squash plant, like pumpkin, cucumber, summer squash, etc...
Young spineless opuntia cactus pads

Weeds:

There are soooooooo many...
Dandelion
Mallow
Filaree
Smooth Sow thistle
Prickly Sow thistle
Milk thistle
Goat head weed
Cats ear
Nettles
Trefoil
Wild onion
Wild mustard
Wild Garlic
Clovers
Broadleaf plantain
Narrow leaf plantain
Chick weed
Hawksbit
Hensbit
Hawksbeard

Other good stuff:


"Testudo Seed Mix" from http://www.tortoisesupply.com/SeedMixes

Pasture mixes or other seeds from http://www.groworganic.com/seeds.html

Homegrown alfalfa

Mazuri Tortoise Chow

ZooMed Grassland Tortoise Food

Ones that you can buy in every store:
Arugula
Lambs lettuce
Chicory
Kale
Mustard greens
Organic kohlrabi leafs
Organic carrot leafs
Organic radish leafs
Dandelions
Radiccio


Their main diet should be broad leaf weeds, succulents and grasses. Store bought foods are okay, but not the best. Collards and dandelions are a good food, but neither should be used every day. Check out the plant ID section for lots of ideas on weeds to feed. You can get spineless opuntia cactus pads from most Mexican grocery stores, or grow them yourself. You can also easily grow grape leaves, african hibiscus, regular hibiscus (if it will survive in your area), and mulberry leaves. You can try red apple, ice plant, and jade plant too. Also look into Gazania, pansies, nasturtiums, carnations, geraniums and many others. At the grocery store, favor endive and escarole, but also use cilantro, carrot tops, mustard and turnip greens, bok choy, radiccio, swiss chard, watercress, parsley, all the lettuces, etc. Lots of variety is best. There are also tortoise "weed" seed mixes that you can grow. I like the "Testudo Mix" from Tortoisesupply.com.
Buckwheat; cactus; vetch; Mohave aster; creosote bush; desert four o’clock; tacoma stans; bladderpod; globe mallow; goldenhead; burro weed; so many things!


Feeding:
So much contradictory info on this subject. Its simple. What do they eat in the wild. Grass, weeds, leaves, flowers, and succulents. Feed them a huge variety of these things, and you'll have a healthy tortoise. All of these species are very adaptable when it comes to diet and there is a very large margin of error, and many ways to do it right. What if you don't have this sort of "natural" tortoise food available for part of each year because you are in the snow? You will have no choice but to buy grocery store food. What's wrong with grocery store food? It tends to lack fiber, some items are low in calcium or have a poor calcium to phosphorous ratio, and some items have deleterious compounds in them. All of these short comings can be improved with some simple supplementation and amendments. A pinch of calcium two times per week will help fix that problem. You can also leave cuttle bone in the enclosure, so your tortoise can self-regulate its own calcium intake. What about fiber? Soaked horse hay pellets, soaked ZooMed Grassland pellets, Mazuri tortoise chow, "Salad style", "Herbal Hay" both from @TylerStewart and his lovely wife Sarah at Tortoisesupply.com, or many of the dried plants and leaves available from Will @Kapidolo Farms. If you must use grocery store foods, favor endive and escarole as your main staples. Add in arugula, cilantro, kale, collard, mustard and turnip greens, squash leaves, spring mix, romaine, green or red leaf lettuce, butter lettuce, water cress, carrot tops, celery tops, bok choy, and whatever other greens you can find. If you mix in some of the aforementioned amendments, these grocery store foods will offer plenty of variety and fiber and be able to meet your tortoises nutritional needs just fine. I find it preferable to grab a few grapevine or mulberry leaves, or a handful of mallow and clover, or some broadleaf plantain leaves and some grass, but with the right additions, grocery store stuff is fine too. Grow your own stuff, or find it around you when possible. Tyler and Sarah also sell a fantastic Testudo seed mix that is great for ALL tortoise species and also super easy to grow in pots, trays, raised garden beds, or in outdoor tortoise enclosures. When that isn't possible, add a wide variety of good stuff to your grocery store greens to make them better.

Supplements:
I recommend you keep cuttle bone available all the time. Some never use it and some munch on it regularly. Some of mine will go months without touching it, and then suddenly eat the whole thing in a day or two. Sulcatas and leopards grow a lot. This requires a tremendous amount of calcium assimilation over time. A great diet is paramount, but it is still a good idea to give them some extra calcium regularly. I use a tiny pinch of RepCal or ZooMed plain old calcium carbonate twice a week. Much discussion has been given to whether or not they need D3 in their calcium supplement. Personally, I don't think it matters. Every tortoise should be getting adequate UV exposure one way or another, so they should be able to make their own D3. I also like to use a mineral supplement. "MinerAll" is my current brand of choice. It seems to help those tortoises that like to swallow pebbles and rocks. It is speculated that some tortoise eat rocks or substrate due to a mineral deficiency or imbalance. Whatever the reason, "MinerAll" seems to stop it or prevent it. Finally, I like to use a reptile vitamin supplement once a week, to round out any hidden deficiencies that may be in my diet over the course of a year.
Hi- Which pasture blend do you use from groworganic.com? There are a few different ones that they sell. Thanks!
 

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