[split] Ploughshare discussion

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Yellow Turtle

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CourtneyG

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Yellow Turtle said:
CourtneyG said:

Yup, I know that story already last week. So what would you recommend to prevent smuggling and stop extinction in the wild?

I believe we've had such discussion here before, but I'm curious to know your ideas :rolleyes:

In all honesty I don't think there is a way to stop it. All one can do is educate people on the animal and their importance to the wild and what they can do as an individual to help or prevent the illegal trading of the animal by stoping their and others demand for the animal. Also punish poachers a lot more heavily for their crimes.
 

Yellow Turtle

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Radiated said:
About this link: http://news.mongabay.com/2013/0325-hance...cking.html
Do you guys think they are wild or captive bread form the breeding program? And how do they survive in that tape....

I don't think they are captive breeds, but I don't think they are "that" rare also in the wild...

Above article wrote that only 400 angonoka exist in the wild, so 54 smuggled accounted for 13% of torts removed from the wild. If that's what really happened, I believe angonoka is already long time ago extinct in the wild. People will always try to smuggle angonoka due to the country's state and if it's been going for a while, every 13% taken per smuggler meaning no more angonoka should exist in the wild for now.

For the tape, it is common way used to avoid the torts moving too much, so can pack more and risking less detection from the security. Tortoise are quite hardy, most of them survive that treatment...


CourtneyG said:
In all honesty I don't think there is a way to stop it. All one can do is educate people on the animal and their importance to the wild and what they can do as an individual to help or prevent the illegal trading of the animal by stoping their and others demand for the animal. Also punish poachers a lot more heavily for their crimes.

I like the idea, but I'd really love to see how poor and hungry people to be educated on animal conservation. Below is an old data on the country per capita status, but I believe the condition now is not far from that.
http://www.wildmadagascar.org/overview/FAQs/why_is_Madagascar_poor.html

This is newer data, see how the income increases a bit only compares to 2003.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD

For average USD 1/day income rate and 70% people under malnutrition, in all honesty, I'd rather all the animals to be extinct and the people get something to eat out of the wild. Give them food and jobs, correct the government system, can you please advise how to do that?
 

emystiong

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Zamric said:
Madagascar is an Island Nation with a mostly Tropic like condition and a small Semi-Arid area.

Have you being there ? Specially where Yniphora are found ? Go out more and see more - beside just do a search on internet and you should be able to see the kind of environment they provide for Yniphora in-situ or Yniphora in the wild !!

Cheers
 

Radiated

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emystiong said:
Zamric said:
Madagascar is an Island Nation with a mostly Tropic like condition and a small Semi-Arid area.

Have you being there ? Specially where Yniphora are found ? Go out more and see more - beside just do a search on internet and you should be able to see the kind of environment they provide for Yniphora in-situ or Yniphora in the wild !!

Cheers

Didnt you once mention going there and collecting data etc?
 

Zamric

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emystiong said:
Zamric said:
Madagascar is an Island Nation with a mostly Tropic like condition and a small Semi-Arid area.

Have you being there ? Specially where Yniphora are found ? Go out more and see more - beside just do a search on internet and you should be able to see the kind of environment they provide for Yniphora in-situ or Yniphora in the wild !!

Cheers

Get out more and see more? :(

;) I was born and raise in the Military, served 8 years myself then became a Dependant again when the Wife (also an Army Brat) joined up. I have a total of 34 (out of 50) years traveling the World with the Military, and the rest traveling the US on my own, or as my Dad would say "I've been around the World and to a Goat Rodeo..."

Sorry, my travels never took me to Madagascar (Tho my oldest son, who joined the Navy, did) so I did have to do a internet search on this one, but try not to make that paticulare statement again with me, as I have seen more of the World then most people. :p
 

CourtneyG

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Yellow Turtle said:
Radiated said:
About this link: http://news.mongabay.com/2013/0325-hance...cking.html
Do you guys think they are wild or captive bread form the breeding program? And how do they survive in that tape....

I don't think they are captive breeds, but I don't think they are "that" rare also in the wild...

Above article wrote that only 400 angonoka exist in the wild, so 54 smuggled accounted for 13% of torts removed from the wild. If that's what really happened, I believe angonoka is already long time ago extinct in the wild. People will always try to smuggle angonoka due to the country's state and if it's been going for a while, every 13% taken per smuggler meaning no more angonoka should exist in the wild for now.

For the tape, it is common way used to avoid the torts moving too much, so can pack more and risking less detection from the security. Tortoise are quite hardy, most of them survive that treatment...


CourtneyG said:
In all honesty I don't think there is a way to stop it. All one can do is educate people on the animal and their importance to the wild and what they can do as an individual to help or prevent the illegal trading of the animal by stoping their and others demand for the animal. Also punish poachers a lot more heavily for their crimes.

I like the idea, but I'd really love to see how poor and hungry people to be educated on animal conservation. Below is an old data on the country per capita status, but I believe the condition now is not far from that.
http://www.wildmadagascar.org/overview/FAQs/why_is_Madagascar_poor.html

This is newer data, see how the income increases a bit only compares to 2003.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD

For average USD 1/day income rate and 70% people under malnutrition, in all honesty, I'd rather all the animals to be extinct and the people get something to eat out of the wild. Give them food and jobs, correct the government system, can you please advise how to do that?



I am South African, you educate the children when they come to the parks or when you go out to rescue animals caught in traps by farmers, you inform them what to do next time and why it should not be done. But it is very hard to change people's hard set ways.
 

Yellow Turtle

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CourtneyG said:
I am South African, you educate the children when they come to the parks or when you go out to rescue animals caught in traps by farmers, you inform them what to do next time and why it should not be done. But it is very hard to change people's hard set ways.

That's not answering the point that these people don't need anything except food and job. As a South African, you must have realized there's no way you can compare your country with Madagascar. South Africa is developed country in Africa continent and people there are way much more educated compare to Madagascar. So far I've never heard people smuggling pardalis pardalis from South Africa to Asian countries.
 

tortoises101

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[/quote]

For average USD 1/day income rate and 70% people under malnutrition, in all honesty, I'd rather all the animals to be extinct and the people get something to eat out of the wild. Give them food and jobs, correct the government system, can you please advise how to do that?
[/quote]

The poor people of Madagascar must use what's available around them. They don't have a choice. That's where the question comes in: what is reasonable/sustainable use of wildlife in poor countries? Part of the answer is alternative food sources. Increasingly more Malagasy are using insect protein in the form of silkworms to replace animal protein such as lemurs and tortoises. Give them alternative food sources and they will stop hunting wild animals.
 

Yellow Turtle

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CourtneyG said:
You have no idea what SA is like, none what so ever.

Of course, no one will ever know except for the citizen... For a country which applied apartheid policy for quite some time, there will be no fast cure to the economy and people. As you won't know what is really happening now in my country nor Madagascar. Most countries are hiding what really happen inside... And at most time, the worse cases...

But for a big picture, GDP is enough to represent what "most" of the people there in Madagascar are facing. Poverty and malnutrition, that's a simple fact.


tortoises101 said:
The poor people of Madagascar must use what's available around them. They don't have a choice. That's where the question comes in: what is reasonable/sustainable use of wildlife in poor countries? Part of the answer is alternative food sources. Increasingly more Malagasy are using insect protein in the form of silkworms to replace animal protein such as lemurs and tortoises. Give them alternative food sources and they will stop hunting wild animals.

Absolutely... They simply do that because they have no choice. They eat what they can to avoid sick and death. Would we ourselves want to eat insect now when we still have plenty of choices available for us? So now that the malagasy eat insects, should they care more for the tortoises and lemurs? I don't think so. As long as they are still in poverty, those 2 animals will always be considered as ways to get more money to buy common food for the families. And let's think it over, food/insect is not the only things needed for human being to survive. What about clean water, clothing and place to live? Those other needs absolutely can't be simply solved by silkworms.
 

tortoises101

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Yellow Turtle said:
CourtneyG said:
You have no idea what SA is like, none what so ever.

Of course, no one will ever know except for the citizen... For a country which applied apartheid policy for quite some time, there will be no fast cure to the economy and people. As you won't know what is really happening now in my country nor Madagascar. Most countries are hiding what really happen inside... And at most time, the worse cases...

But for a big picture, GDP is enough to represent what "most" of the people there in Madagascar are facing. Poverty and malnutrition, that's a simple fact.


tortoises101 said:
The poor people of Madagascar must use what's available around them. They don't have a choice. That's where the question comes in: what is reasonable/sustainable use of wildlife in poor countries? Part of the answer is alternative food sources. Increasingly more Malagasy are using insect protein in the form of silkworms to replace animal protein such as lemurs and tortoises. Give them alternative food sources and they will stop hunting wild animals.

What about clean water, clothing and place to live? Those other needs absolutely can't be simply solved by silkworms.



Neither can they be solved by hunting endangered species. What happens when they become locally extinct or move away? This is why you need alternative methods. With alternative methods, you're at least guaranteed a sustainable source of food. I forgot to mention this earlier, but an increasing number of Malagasy are raising their own tilapia and freshwater lobsters through aquaculture. Also, many are practicing sustainable agriculture by growing vanilla, breadfruit, coffee, rice, etc on fertilized soil instead of tavy (slash and burn).
 

Yellow Turtle

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tortoises101 said:
Neither can they be solved by hunting endangered species. What happens when they become locally extinct or move away? This is why you need alternative methods. With alternative methods, you're at least guaranteed a sustainable source of food. I forgot to mention this earlier, but an increasing number of Malagasy are raising their own tilapia and freshwater lobsters through aquaculture. Also, many are practicing sustainable agriculture by growing vanilla, breadfruit, coffee, rice, etc on fertilized soil instead of tavy (slash and burn).

These kind of debates can take ages when someone has different opinions so I won't continue from here on this topic. I will share my opinion again, once I see some statements which are ambiguous and have tendency to point fingers on some countries.
 
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