Sperm Retention

[Tom]

Nice title, huh?

Okay, some background before the question. I just recently discovered that some friends that I've know for many years have two adult female Gpp. I've only been to their place a few times over the years and the leopards are housed at their friends house who works for them, so I've never seen them, but we've talked about them. Well I just did a job with one of them the other day and I was showing her all my pictures and explaining the humidity for babies thing and what I've learned about it all and she told me she was sure hers were the SA type of leopards. She said they are 20 years old and they know the source very well. Then she told me they were both around 18-20" (I have not confirmed this yet). Anyhow, these guys are just casual tortoise owners. They aren't "into it" like some of us. Along the way someone gave them another "Leopard" and they just put it in the pen with their other two. Well they've been producing babies for years now and I'm pretty sure the male is a babcocki... (Tom smacks his own forehead, Doh!) They said the male is much smaller than the females and much shier too. These guys have a bunch of big sulcatas too and they describe the personalities of the females as very sulcata-like. Her words, not mine. SOOOOOOOO...

How long can a female retain sperm from a prior breeding?

I intend to try like heck to buy these females from them (I find that large wads of small bills works well), and I'm wondering how long it will take to get the babcocki out of them. I don't know if they'll even consider parting with them, but boy am I gonna try. I know of one other adult female pp and and I know someone with a proven adult male whose willing to do a local breeding loan. I might be in the Gpp business sooner than I ever thought!!!

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

A lot of turtle and tortoise species can store sperm for up to 3 years. I would think it would be the same for leopard tortoises.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

I have heard up to four years, never proved it or had any experience with it. I also heard that if the tortoise's core temperature gets below a certain temperature all sperm is dead. I also would like to know from a good reliable source that answer as well.

 

[Angi]

I don't have an answer, but I have another question. If they can retain sperm could they have a mixed clutch if they were bred with a different tortoise? Does the old and new sperm get all mixed up?

 

[Angi]

I don't have an answer, but I have another question. If they can retain sperm could they have a mixed clutch if they were bred with a different tortoise? Does the old and new sperm get all mixed up?

 

[Tom]

Angi, this does seem likely to me, but I don't know the answer for sure either. I know dogs can throw pups from multiple sires all in the same litter.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

I don't have an answer, but I have another question. If they can retain sperm could they have a mixed clutch if they were bred with a different tortoise? Does the old and new sperm get all mixed up?

I think they can, not scientifically saying, I am allmost sure some of our females have mixed male sperm per clutch. That is a good question, maybe some of our higher educated/academic folks have a concrete answer.

 

[chairman]

I have no idea if it would work, but what about having a vet put some spermicide in the tortoise? Or perhaps just have them use saline to attempt to flush any retained sperm out?

 

[onarock]

I started a thread on that a while ago Angie. What I understand is its not so much sperm retention as its hundreds or even thousands of egg follicle's. The sperm fertilizes the follicle and its the fertilized follicle that is stored. When conditions are right in the female, she can start to develop eggs, a kind of fertile egg factory.

I think females that are bred by multiple males can lay clutches representative of all the males. A bunch of half related.

Like I stated its just my understanding of what someone told me. Wheres Danny or HLogic on this one?

 

[Angi]

This is a very interesting thread. Thank God humans don't have this problem. Not that I would be having kids from different dads or anything LOL!, but it would really suck to have a kid a couple years after my hubby got fixed. I think he would shot me HaaHa. He was SOOOO done after our 12 year old was born. Great kid, but he didn't sleep at night for the first 3 years. Sorry to get off topic. I started off on topic. I really do find this fasinating.

 

[Angi]

This is a very interesting thread. Thank God humans don't have this problem. Not that I would be having kids from different dads or anything LOL!, but it would really suck to have a kid a couple years after my hubby got fixed. I think he would shot me HaaHa. He was SOOOO done after our 12 year old was born. Great kid, but he didn't sleep at night for the first 3 years. Sorry to get off topic. I started off on topic. I really do find this fasinating.

 

[Laura]

I was going to say, Due to the Topic.. 'Sounds like a personal Problem'
But this is kinda interesting...
and GOOD LUCK!! maybe they will consider a breeding loan ? or seperate the male and add yours?

 

[Yvonne G]

I started a thread on that a while ago Angie. What I understand is its not so much sperm retention as its hundreds or even thousands of egg follicle's. The sperm fertilizes the follicle and its the fertilized follicle that is stored. When conditions are right in the female, she can start to develop eggs, a kind of fertile egg factory.

I think females that are bred by multiple males can lay clutches representative of all the males. A bunch of half related.

Like I stated its just my understanding of what someone told me. Wheres Danny or HLogic on this one?

This makes the most sense to me (fertilized follicles, not sperm retention). Everything I can find to read about the subject refers to "sperm retention," but I'm inclined to believe that the follicles are fertilized and held in suspended animation until conditions are correct.

I saw an answer to this question on Shelled Warriors, and Danny didn't know much more than all of us here on the subject.

 

[Laura]

in Seal, they have Delayed Inplantation.. So the egg gets fertilized, it just doesnt start to develope.. sounds like the same thing and makes most sense..

 

[Yvonne G]

in Seals, they have Delayed Inplantation.. So the egg gets fertilized, it just doesnt start to develope.. sounds like the same thing and makes most sense..

Likewise kangaroos. They can have a baby in the pouch, and a fertilized follicle waiting for that baby to leave.

 

[Tom]

Good stuff. I wish that one of us actually KNEW the answer. A well known tortoise vet told a friend of mine the three year thing too. Seems to be sort of a consensus. This complicates things greatly if one is inclined to breed a pure strain. So it seems like for AT LEAST three years these females would be throwing hybrids. What a bummer.

Tell everyone: DON'T MIX SPECIES OR SUB-SPECIES!!!

 

[JeffG]

Good stuff. I wish that one of us actually KNEW the answer. A well known tortoise vet told a friend of mine the three year thing too. Seems to be sort of a consensus. This complicates things greatly if one is inclined to breed a pure strain. So it seems like for AT LEAST three years these females would be throwing hybrids. What a bummer.

Tell everyone: DON'T MIX SPECIES OR SUB-SPECIES!!!

I think IF she was using retained sperm , and you were breeding her with a pure Gpp, that she would actually be dropping mixed clutches that contained hybrids AND pure Gpp's. Couldn't you tell visually which were which when they hatched? I'm sorry if that is a stupid question. I couldn't tell, but some of you guys seem to be really good at identifying hatchlings.

 

[Laura]

and if not Visually.. then what about DNA testing???
Blood tests or cheek swabs? do they work for torts?
If she is laying... would she be retaining? what is her history?

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

Good stuff. I wish that one of us actually KNEW the answer. A well known tortoise vet told a friend of mine the three year thing too. Seems to be sort of a consensus. This complicates things greatly if one is inclined to breed a pure strain. So it seems like for AT LEAST three years these females would be throwing hybrids. What a bummer.

Tell everyone: DON'T MIX SPECIES OR SUB-SPECIES!!!

I think IF she was using retained sperm , and you were breeding her with a pure Gpp, that she would actually be dropping mixed clutches that contained hybrids AND pure Gpp's. Couldn't you tell visually which were which when they hatched? I'm sorry if that is a stupid question. I couldn't tell, but some of you guys seem to be really good at identifying hatchlings.

That is a great question, I sure could not tell, but some of our members that are specialized should be able to tell easy.

 

[onarock]

Best question yet. The problem is establishing up to date gen-bank data. There are recent study's that say a lot of the gen-bank data is rubbish. Also determining clades is difficult enough. I guess what I am saying is, even if you could do blood tests, what do you compare it to? I would go so far as to say even those who claim to have 100% pure gpp might not want those tests done, because they cant be sure themselves. Leopard tortoises = Evolution by isolation, their just big tent tortoises.

and if not Visually.. then what about DNA testing???
Blood tests or cheek swabs? do they work for torts?
If she is laying... would she be retaining? what is her history?

---

I read somewhere that a tortoise layed fertile eggs for 6 years after the male was removed. I'll look for it and post back if I can find it.

Good stuff. I wish that one of us actually KNEW the answer. A well known tortoise vet told a friend of mine the three year thing too. Seems to be sort of a consensus. This complicates things greatly if one is inclined to breed a pure strain. So it seems like for AT LEAST three years these females would be throwing hybrids. What a bummer.

Tell everyone: DON'T MIX SPECIES OR SUB-SPECIES!!!