Southern western painted turtle mix

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diamondbp

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Here is a young southern western mix . The dad is a western painted and the mom is a southern painted turtle. They make for some beautiful turtles! ImageUploadedByTortForum1379978874.787501.jpgImageUploadedByTortForum1379978886.207994.jpgImageUploadedByTortForum1379978897.633113.jpg
 
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diamondbp

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Yeh it's unique because I don't think there is any area where they naturally intergrade but it's not technically a hybrid since its interbreeding of subspecies. Regardless it's super pretty
 

Anthony P

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No, dorsalis is its own species now. Chrysemys dorsalis.

I thought the same thing at first before I reminded myself.

As the taxonomy currently reads, this would be Chrysemys dorsalis X Chrysemys picta bellii (a hybrid) as opposed to Chrsemys picta dorsalis X Chrysemys picta bellii (an intergrade).
 

Diamondbacks4Life

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Very cool, i always wondered what that would look like. I thought about seeing what would happen but i kept mine separate.
 

Gerards

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I cannot like it, some hybrids look cool, but at the end of the day, I hate hybrids. I wish I could like some of them, but they can really mess things up and should be avoided at all times. No offense to you, just my opinion.
 

Anthony P

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I do agree with that Gerard.

I personally take it one step further with morphs kinda rubbing me the wrong way, in a way. Part of me loves them and they will always be a part of my personal history. The other part of me, however, knows that there are so many rare species that look so beautiful on their own, and can benefit so much from captive breeding efforts. I don't like to waste my space or resources on anything that doesn't help me create endangered hatchlings.

These are exciting times, with Mauremys annamensis and Cuora trifasciata returning to Asia. Worth being involved in some part of that trend if you can.
 

Gerards

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Yes, and that's why I feel so lucky that I have the time and resources to do both. It's like my job and hobby are two parts of the same thing, but still different enough to distinguish between them. Cool times!
 

diamondbp

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I know they have recently seperated dorsalis from the rest of the painted turtles but I strongly disagree with this decision. I understand the reasoning behind it, but I think the scientific community gets out of hand with the seperation of subspecies /species.

Just like with the gibbonsi,ernsti,puchra map turtle complex. To seperate these as seperate species all together is going to far in my opinion. The same goes for the river/pond cooter complex. I understand the geographic seperation and slightly different genetics are the reasoning, but the bottom line to me is that if a certain species will readily mate with and produce fertile offspring with another species, then they should be considered a variation of the same species. Not seperate species all together. But that's just my humble opinion. I think the same logic could be said for SEVERAL so called species/sub species across that globe. I'm sure this is a different view than most and I'm ok with that, but honestly I think it makes more sense in the big picture.
 

Anthony P

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I hear you. That's why I was impressed to see this, since they are technically different species, and I hadn't seen dorsalis hybridize before.

As far as my limited understanding of genetics and how they effect splitting of species, I was interested to see how this technically contradicts that.
 

diamondbp

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The parents of this one are both really old animals that I've had since my youth that have recently decided to get romantic. I know they were both wild caught originally which makes it even more interesting because hybrids usually occur in totally captive raised animals.
 

Redfoot NERD

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ESPECIALLY SINCE THE SOUTHERN IS ALMOST HALF THE SIZE OF THE WESTERN.

diamondbp could it be that after how many years their natural "propagation instincts" kicked in??? Do they have their "own kind" to mate with?

Gerards can you imagine what is going on with those turtles' DNA about now - that's my main disapproval!

The only thing "COMMON" about EVERY turtle and tortoise on the planet is they have a head and legs and some form of "shell" covering some or all of those soft parts! And yes sometimes their territories do cross - but in this case it's not very big. You suppose they are different because of their geographic/flora origins?

Of course anybody can name them anything they want.... who are "THEY" anyway????????????????? What they are named has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

Now leave this old-timer alone and don't come back at me with any of your "justifications" please :cool:

[ I know you're thinking... he got himself in this so he's going to have to deal with it ]

--- "Bit off another piece of stupid AGAIN!" ] ---
 

diamondbp

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Terry Im not sure if your comments were addressed toward me or Gerard lol

These turtles have been in my collection over 15 years and the male western painted turtles does have other female western he mates with. But my male southern escaped last year and it seems like this particular southern female allowed the western to mate with her.

Some of your comments were confusing to me but I'm thinking that might be because you weren't addressing me.

I'll just say this. I think people get to bent out of shape over stuff like hybrids/morphs etc. If someone was breeding these turtles to purposely release into the wild, I would see cause for concern, but if these turtles stay in captivity and don't have the ability to reproduce then what could they possibly hurt? I think people overlook the several recent decades of turtles being released into nonnative areas across the globe by the thousands and yet get worked up over a small group of hybrids/morphs/ or whichever.

So In my opinion, people are free to do what they want to do. I just HOPE that they are responsible about it. As for me I never intended on producing these mixes but I don't think it should draw concern.

And as far as the DNA point, they are both still painted turtles and the same species to me regardless of what the books say. If a group of westerns naturally made there way further south over the next few decades and started intergrading with the southern population people would probably think it was interesting and neat. I'm also sure people wouldn't blink an eye if a rio grande red ear was breed with a yellow bellied slider in captivity, but then again it seems everyone has their own opinion.
 

Gerards

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diamondbp said:
Terry Im not sure if your comments were addressed toward me or Gerard lol

These turtles have been in my collection over 15 years and the male western painted turtles does have other female western he mates with. But my male southern escaped last year and it seems like this particular southern female allowed the western to mate with her.

Some of your comments were confusing to me but I'm thinking that might be because you weren't addressing me.

I'll just say this. I think people get to bent out of shape over stuff like hybrids/morphs etc. If someone was breeding these turtles to purposely release into the wild, I would see cause for concern, but if these turtles stay in captivity and don't have the ability to reproduce then what could they possibly hurt? I think people overlook the several recent decades of turtles being released into nonnative areas across the globe by the thousands and yet get worked up over a small group of hybrids/morphs/ or whichever.

So In my opinion, people are free to do what they want to do. I just HOPE that they are responsible about it. As for me I never intended on producing these mixes but I don't think it should draw concern.

And as far as the DNA point, they are both still painted turtles and the same species to me regardless of what the books say. If a group of westerns naturally made there way further south over the next few decades and started intergrading with the southern population people would probably think it was interesting and neat. I'm also sure people wouldn't blink an eye if a rio grande red ear was breed with a yellow bellied slider in captivity, but then again it seems everyone has their own opinion.

I see no problem with them if they're kept in a secure collection, and their existence doesn't bother me, it's the possibility of being misrepresented and integrated. However, you do not seem like a person that would let happen, and they should make interesting conversations in the future, as they mature.

Rio Grandes, just a locality of elegans, have seriously affected wild populations of scripta. I know more than a few people that blink, even twitch, about that invasion.

I do have a few elegan x concinna hybrids that hatched, by accident, at the zoo I worked for in Miami a few years ago. I do feel fine knowing they are safe and happy, and have no way making their way where they're not wanted. They do not look better than either of the two phenotypes that spawned them.
 

diamondbp

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Thanks Gerard. I definitely am the kind of turtle lover that would never reintroduce invasive genetics into a wild population. I only hatched one of these mixes this year and I do plan on seperating the turtles next year when I build my new house with new inclosures.

What's funny about the rio grande red-ears is that were I live in South Louisiana there is a few populations that look JUST LIKE RIO GRANDE RED EARS!! They are beautiful BEAUTIFUL red ears. Actually the bayou in front of the property where I will be building has them there so hopefully in the near future I can capture some for some photos. You will be shocked at how gorgeous they are. But adding to that point, is that not 20 miles away in the Atchafalaya Basin the red ears look drab colored and get much larger.

It's just a reminder to me that genetics even within a small area can vary to the extreme within a species.

I'll post more pictures of the mix as the months past just so people can view them. Take care
 
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