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i remember reading a article that a certain fruit is part of their diet in the wild,forgot what the name is .
Source of protein for sulcatas in the wild
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franz_see
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Not long after I joined I was warned about feeding my RF too much Mazuri so I backed way off. It created eating problems as my torts went on a hunger strike. I was told by Tortoise Supply that Mazuri is better suited for Forrest species, namely Red footed and that more arid torts would do well with the LS.
Almost everything is higher protein than grass. The rationale for feeding or not feeding Mazuri is not really about protein. Mazuri contains a balance of minerals and vitamins that I can't guarantee that my tortoise is getting otherwise. My caution with Mazuri diet is the amount of sugar it has, the source of fiber, and the digestibility of the food. Of course the convenience of feeding Mazuri is another factor. Since at times I run out of "natural foods", and I am sure others do, especially in colder climates, Mazuri is handy to have.
I have seen my sulcata eat poop. First, when he was a baby, he ate his on poop. Then when he started going outside he found dog poop. Once I took him to my in-laws ranch so he could roam. There I saw him eat horse poop. This I found interesting because these are strictly hay feed animals and my sulcata was not eating hay. I don't think it was for protein either. A vet once told me that all animals eat feces as a pro-biotic. To load their gut with the bacteria they need to digest the foods in their territory. Still, I find it disgusting and try to discourage it. At age 3, my sulcata quit eating his own poop (as far as I can tell). Since we have no dogs now he doesn't get that either. He confused the horses so much that I don't take him to the ranch any more. I am a bit curious if he would still eat the horse poop.
I have seen my sulcata eat poop. First, when he was a baby, he ate his on poop. Then when he started going outside he found dog poop. Once I took him to my in-laws ranch so he could roam. There I saw him eat horse poop. This I found interesting because these are strictly hay feed animals and my sulcata was not eating hay. I don't think it was for protein either. A vet once told me that all animals eat feces as a pro-biotic. To load their gut with the bacteria they need to digest the foods in their territory. Still, I find it disgusting and try to discourage it. At age 3, my sulcata quit eating his own poop (as far as I can tell). Since we have no dogs now he doesn't get that either. He confused the horses so much that I don't take him to the ranch any more. I am a bit curious if he would still eat the horse poop.
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And that fruit is high in protein?
not sure , just found out the name Balanites aegyptiaca , which they eat the date palms
Btw, just curious. Can alfalfa be fed regularly or sparingly only? Thanks!
This is debatable. As I mentioned above, the largest sulcata breeder that I know of uses alfalfa hay as a daily staple. I use it only periodically and I grow my own. I think it is fine to use it regularly as long as you make sure they are well hydrated and getting lots of other variety too.
I know that if you feed a horse only alfalfa hay it causes their urine to be very dark. We are supposed to balance the calcium/phosphorus ratio of the alfalfa with added oat hay. So I think the guy who only feed alfalfa hay to his sulcatas might be doing harm to their kidneys.
From a horse site: "Alfalfa is most beneficial for horses with high energy needs due to their moderate to high level of exertion. Alfalfa may provide too much energy, protein and nutrients for horses that are only occasionally exercised. Those horses that spend less than five hours a week performing low to moderate intensity activities, such as showing or recreational riding, do not require the high levels of nutrients that high quality Alfalfa supplies. A feed program for recreational horses should limit Alfalfa and include forage with high chew time, such as Timothy hay to combat idleness."
This leads me to think that Tom's approach to alfalfa feeding might be a better one.
From a horse site: "Alfalfa is most beneficial for horses with high energy needs due to their moderate to high level of exertion. Alfalfa may provide too much energy, protein and nutrients for horses that are only occasionally exercised. Those horses that spend less than five hours a week performing low to moderate intensity activities, such as showing or recreational riding, do not require the high levels of nutrients that high quality Alfalfa supplies. A feed program for recreational horses should limit Alfalfa and include forage with high chew time, such as Timothy hay to combat idleness."
This leads me to think that Tom's approach to alfalfa feeding might be a better one.
franz_see
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Correct. Mazuri is not only for protein. I apologize if I made it look like that. But what I'm trying to get at with my earlier comment is that everything else that Mazuri provides can technically be provided as well naturally. Seemingly, except for protein (unless you feed them poop, insects, etc). But I know better now given that @Tom pointed out that alfalfa is a good source of protein as well
But you're right. Hatchlings would eat poop - regardless if it's theirs or not. But I think most baby animals are like that anyway
franz_see
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Thanks! I'll look it up!
franz_see
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Thanks! Curious though, for you, by "periodically", does that mean like once a week, or once a month, or really something like a few times a year only?
franz_see
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Thanks @Yvonne G . Great information!
Curious @Tom, and @Yvonne G , if Alfalfa is to be fed daily, what's the maximum amount of alfalfa can they be fed with? Would it be something like 10% of their overall diet? Not that I'm planning to do this, but I'm just curious how much "protein" should a sulcata have
Thanks!
Alfalfa and most of the legumes (clovers and medics) have similar protein levels as that of Mazuri. So, the protein in Mazuri is not an exception that can not be supplied naturally. I feed Mazuri for everything else it provides, other than the protein. Mazuri provides a balance of essential nutrients that I just can't be certain my tortoise is getting from grazing on even the most diversely planted yard I can imagine.
I could be mistaken, but I believe that sulcata and leopards eat feces for something other than suppling protein. In the accounts that I have read about them eating feces in the wild it has been mostly from herds of grazing mammals. Probably eating the same grasses as available to the tortoises. Yet it would be more digestible than dried grass since having been eaten once already, it would contain more moisture since having passed through another animals gut, and still contain plenty of nutrients in the undigested plant matter it contains. It would also contain bacteria that is needed in the gut to digest the foods they are grazing on. Yes, I have seen my tortoise go for dog poop. And I am sure that in the wild they find and eat feces from carnivores. In this case I can see that they are getting "higher protein" levels. This doesn't convince me that they are seeking the protein in the feces. They are just being the opportunistic feeders that they are.
Thanks! Curious though, for you, by "periodically", does that mean like once a week, or once a month, or really something like a few times a year only?
There is no set schedule. I feed it out based on how fast it is growing and how often I need to cut it back. Sometimes this is once or twice a week. Other times this is once a month. I would say that grass and grass hay is about the only thing that I feed them all on a daily basis. I try to mix in a wide variety of other things, depending on what is available at that time of year. For example, in spring and summer they see more mulberry leaves, cactus pads and grape vine leaves. In winter when these things are dormant, they see more wild grasses and weeds which only grow during out winter rains.
Thanks @Yvonne G . Great information!
Curious @Tom, and @Yvonne G , if Alfalfa is to be fed daily, what's the maximum amount of alfalfa can they be fed with? Would it be something like 10% of their overall diet? Not that I'm planning to do this, but I'm just curious how much "protein" should a sulcata have
There are no set guidelines for this and no studies that I know of. Mine eat it once or twice a week mixed in with other things, or as little as once a month. That breeder I mentioned feeds it almost exclusively and has done so for many years. While I'm inclined to agree with Yvonne's assessment of that practice, it does not seem to be doing any harm that I can see.
If you are looking for a guideline, I would recommend feeding alfalfa, green beans, peas or something like that, around once or twice a week, mixed in with other foods. This amount will never harm your tortoise, and it will give the tortoise the protein it needs for growth and maintenance. THis is purely based on my "feelings" about the matter. I'm certain no harm would come to your tortoise if you doubled that amount, or halved it.
franz_see
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franz_see
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Re Clover, and other legumes:
Very interesting information
I did not know that can you provide some reference that I can read further? Thanks! Re eating feces:
Interesting information as well
but you're right, I dont think they'll actively seek out feces Re protein in the wild;
Given the legumes seems to be good sources of protein, do you think that that'a their main source of protein in the wild? Or more of - their protein comes from multiple sources and they dont really get that much protein in the wild?
thanks!
Sorry that I don't have any data on sulcata's natural diet, but the diet of some of the Mediterranean torts has been well studied, and there might be some clues in these studies. In Greeks and Hermann's around a quarter of the diet typically is from the Lugume family (alfalfa is one); these are high in protein, but also high in anti-feeding compounds the plants have to discourage herbivores. It is thought that the trade-off of acquiring the needed protien is worth the cost of the suffering with the toxins.
The strategy many herbivores use is to eat only a small amount of any one Lugume species, and then move to another species. In this way, the toxins don't seem to give them acute poisoning. Of course, in a captive setting a tortoise would not have the option of browsing in this way, and might over-consume a slightly toxic legume. They probably should not be given unlimited access to wild legumes.
Alfalfa is a great food plant; we have been selected and improving it for centuries. With my animals I do not have any hesitation in including it in the diet, but in moderation.
On coprophagy (poo-eating), it does seem that tortoises everywhere agree: poo is food. Icky as this is, I will point out that the droppings will have a much higher protien content than the original plant matter consumed, and is likely to be rich in animal amino acids that are not present in plants alone. Bon appetit
The strategy many herbivores use is to eat only a small amount of any one Lugume species, and then move to another species. In this way, the toxins don't seem to give them acute poisoning. Of course, in a captive setting a tortoise would not have the option of browsing in this way, and might over-consume a slightly toxic legume. They probably should not be given unlimited access to wild legumes.
Alfalfa is a great food plant; we have been selected and improving it for centuries. With my animals I do not have any hesitation in including it in the diet, but in moderation.
On coprophagy (poo-eating), it does seem that tortoises everywhere agree: poo is food. Icky as this is, I will point out that the droppings will have a much higher protien content than the original plant matter consumed, and is likely to be rich in animal amino acids that are not present in plants alone. Bon appetit
You can start with this chart: http://bunniesinneed.net/hay-nutritional-value-chart/Re Clover, and other legumes:
Very interesting information
Ranchers and cattlemen have been feeding grasses and hays to animals for a long time. They have done a lot of research on this topic. They have wrestled with nutritional values and cost issues every business day. There is a ton of info on the internet about pasture mixes, hay, clovers and such.
Sulcata, and I believe other tortoise species, are opportunistic eaters. When they do find feces they will eat it. And they will return to that spot to eat it again. They do remember. During the Spring my sulcata will sit beneath the peach tree and wait for a ripe peach to fall. Well, not exactly. But once he finds one in the yard he will return to that area every day looking for more.Re eating feces:
Interesting information as well
My point was first, that they probably don't seek out feces just for the protein. I say probably because I am not a researcher, just an opinionated sulcata keeper. And second, that the feces that they generally find and eat in the wild has the same protein level as the plants around them. It is protein contained in the plants eaten by grazing mammals. The difference, especially for hatchlings, is that the feces of these mammals, because it is food that has been partially digested already, is easier for the hatchling to eat and digest. Think of a mother bird feeding her baby by regurgitating into the baby's mouth. That baby bird could not eat or digest the same food as the mother bird.
I don't really know what plants (other than the general term "grasses")they have in their natural habitat. They are grass eaters and get almost all of their nutrients, including protein, from plants.Re protein in the wild;
Given the legumes seems to be good sources of protein, do you think that that'a their main source of protein in the wild? Or more of - their protein comes from multiple sources and they dont really get that much protein in the wild?
Re protein in the wild;
Given the legumes seems to be good sources of protein, do you think that that'a their main source of protein in the wild? Or more of - their protein comes from multiple sources and they dont really get that much protein in the wild?
I agree with Joe here. The only place I've seen anything of substance written about the diet of wild sulcatas was in "The Crying Tortoise", and there wasn't much there either. I've seen no studies done, and no lists of the plants that make up the typical diet of a wild sulcata of any age.
We are just guessing here, and primarily going off of what we observe in our captive tortoises.
If anyone reading has info or insight about wild sulcata diets, please chime in.
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