Sorry, stupid enclosure size question..

[JenniferinFL]

So, I've been mulling over getting a sulcata if I come across one and then I remembered an issue that I do have with an enclosure.

The neighbors dog(s).

I have a truly horrific, irresponsible neighbor. Her yard is not fenced and her dogs live outside on tie-outs that they regularly chew through and then they dig into our yard that is fenced.
To make a long story short, for 7 years we've tolerated her dogs coming into our yard and chasing chickens. Last year one of them started killing chickens. Animal control finally came out and lent us a trap after it killed my heritage turkey tom right in our barn and we trapped the dog and brought it to the shelter. (I know, I feel bad about it, but I already have 2 of her abandoned dogs and I'm at the dog limit for our county)
Anyhow, she wrote me a nasty note about stealing her dog and I told her what animal shelter she could find it at and that she should pick it up and leash walk it and keep it inside. Alright. SO, she refused to pick it up, dog got put to sleep and she got another free one out of the paper. We've bought our own dog trap now and I will absolutely rehome every single dog I catch in my yard. We do have dogs, but, we invested a chunk of money in a radio fence system to keep them in the front yard and spent months training them on it. They don't go through it to get a chicken that's standing right at the boundary, so I'd say they're reliably trained.

Alright, so, how does that relate to a sulcata enclosure? Every pet I keep must be fully enclosed because I don't know if her next dog is going to be a digger or a climber. I see a lot of enclosure photos that look almost like a corral rather then an enclosed pen which probably works great if you don't have an awful neighbor with killer dogs.

So, outdoor enclosure size for a single adult sulcata? Because if I'm making this a walk in screened enclosure, size alone may make this project completely unfeasible.
Thanks for any help!

 

[Tom]

What a sad dilemma.

The bigger the better, especially with sulcatas. Its not just their size, its also their activity level. I can't imagine keeping a large adult in anything less than a 50x50' outdoor pen. And even that seems tiny to me. There is no set minimum size. I've seen them in small pens and they survive just fine. I just wouldn't do that to one. Some people say "well that's the best I can do". I say to them, "get a smaller, less active species".

Redfoots are looking better and better for you.

I had a friend here in CA with a similar problem. He simply informed the neighbor that CA law allows him to shoot any pet animal that is even harassing his stock. After hooting and hollering for a few minutes, the lady decided to quit letting her dogs run amok. In your case, it doesn't sound like the lady would care if you actually shot her dog, much less subtly threatened to.

Maybe you could use the BB gun trick I suggested for Stephanies fox problem. Teach the dog that bad things happen when it comes to your side of the fence.

So sad things have to come to this. I wish you well and good luck.

 

[JenniferinFL]

What a sad dilemma.

The bigger the better, especially with sulcatas. Its not just their size, its also their activity level. I can't imagine keeping a large adult in anything less than a 50x50' outdoor pen. And even that seems tiny to me. There is no set minimum size. I've seen them in small pens and they survive just fine. I just wouldn't do that to one. Some people say "well that's the best I can do". I say to them, "get a smaller, less active species".

Redfoots are looking better and better for you.

I had a friend here in CA with a similar problem. He simply informed the neighbor that CA law allows him to shoot any pet animal that is even harassing his stock. After hooting and hollering for a few minutes, the lady decided to quit letting her dogs run amok. In your case, it doesn't sound like the lady would care if you actually shot her dog, much less subtly threatened to.

Maybe you could use the BB gun trick I suggested for Stephanies fox problem. Teach the dog that bad things happen when it comes to your side of the fence.

So sad things have to come to this. I wish you well and good luck.

Thanks, that puts the size into perspective I think. I keep hearing 'large enclosure' but I was really trying to picture what a large enclosure would actually be. We did try a few things to scare off her dog, we had a couple higher powered airsoft guns that did scare it away. BUT, it just learned to get really sneaky and run away as soon as you opened the door which made it almost impossible to trap later. It didn't really cross my mind that issue with an enclosure until today when hubby got sent out several times to check on our redfoot because our dogs were barking at something and we thought her newest dog could be over. He has a sturdy top to his enclosure, but I get nervous anyways. (the tortoise, not hubby, lol)

Unfortunately, there have been several livestock keepers lately that have gone to jail for felony animal cruelty for shooting a dog attacking their livestock. Our state allows you to shoot a dog harassing livestock and pets, but, if you actually do it all the bleeding hearts show up to rally for the dead dog instead of the livestock keepers dead goats, turkeys, and chickens. Unfortunately I wouldn't dare risk that since that's automatic seizure of all my own pets and I'd be nervous of even suggesting it in case someone else shoots a dog in the neighborhood and I catch the blame for it. BUT, the trap does work well and she knows that the tolerance for her dogs in our yard has ended.

I'll have to do some math just to see what I'm looking at for a minimum 50' by 50' pen that's completely enclosed.
Thanks again!

 

[Seiryu]

I'll have to do some math just to see what I'm looking at for a minimum 50' by 50' pen that's completely enclosed.
Thanks again!

That is going to be pretty tough to do. If you do decide on completely enclosing I suggest doing it in sections (Lids in sections rather).

That way you can just pull one section off that you need to to. That just seems like a lot of work. I built a 6x4 outdoor for my leopard hatchling, and I did the Lid as two, 3x4 lids. I thought those were pretty big lids, I can't imagine making a lid that's more than 5x5 (which mean's you need 10).

And then you'd need to set posts through the enclosure for the lids to sit on.

This is just me doing a quick thinking on how you could accomplish covering a 50x50 ft pen, with *decent* access.

 

[DAC8671]

Think in terms of a very large dog run. You could put up chain link fencing (dug down a few feet to help with the digging of the tort and the dogs). Along the bottom half of the fence, put up a visual barrier (patio roof sheeting works well, so does cinderblocks but those can get pricey). For the roof, you can either make an A-Frame type or lay the roof flat. A-frame would work better for people to walk around in. You can do a section that's covered for shade, then a section that's sunny. For a space that large, you could even put a section inside with patio chairs for a nice quiet relaxing place to come and watch/interact with your torts.

Maybe also invest in an alarm of some sort to know if anything has crossed the tort barrier (either in or out).

Good luck with this. I'd like see what you decide.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

What about a motion sensor alarm? I am sorry for your problem but you really can't get a Sulcata until you solve the dog problem. Imagine how horrible you would feel if a dog hurt your tortoise.

 

[JenniferinFL]

The dog run style is really my first idea. Our chicken and turkey pens are about 6 foot tall with a wire mesh roof and an attached garden shed for cover. They both have a poured underground concrete barrier.
I currently have an empty 10' by 25' wire dog run style pen with attached 8' by 8' shed. It's a wooden shed with a concrete floor. The wire is buried into the ground several feet and the posts are concrete reinforced. It has a wire mesh roof over all of it, except the shed of course which has a regular shingle roof. Probably with a visual barrier, a smaller tortoise door cut into the regular shed door and heating, it'd probably be good for a smaller juvenile for awhile and expanding it could be a gradual project.
The other idea is we have a section of the backyard right by the house completely fenced, it's probably about 100' by 200' BUT, it's got a concrete pond in it and I'm not sure if it would know to walk back out of it? Or how the fish would feel about a giant tortoise pooping in their swimming water. The fenced in area doesn't have a mesh cover obviously, but we could easily add a couple strands of electric fencing to the outside of it and with the close proximity to the house it would be pretty easy to avoid trouble. I wouldn't want to use just fencing and electric strands further in the backyard because then my dogs can't hear trouble and let me know we have an intruder since they only have access to the house and front yard.
It does have 1' and 2' raised flower beds in it, so it may not be appropriate there either since it could easily take a tumble off of those.
I dunno, I'll keep thinking it over. I'll let you guys know if I come across an idea that ends up working.

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What about a motion sensor alarm? I am sorry for your problem but you really can't get a Sulcata until you solve the dog problem. Imagine how horrible you would feel if a dog hurt your tortoise.

That's why I'm asking all kinds of enclosure questions. I know that the way our chicken and turkey enclosures are built ARE dog proof. The neighbor dog has never been able to get into them even once. The chicken killing problem is because my chickens are free range during the day when someone's home. They hate being penned up and love looking for bugs everywhere. The chicken pen went up 20 years ago, when I was 8, and nothing has ever gotten into it. So, unfortunately I'm looking at that style of construction for a sulcata rather then a more convenient lower fence/barrier type enclosure.
The problem is whether a pen built in that style only much larger is even feasible.
But yes, I would never leave a tort out in harms way, if I can't afford to build it the same style as the current enclosures we have in a large enough size, then I won't do it. That's why I was asking what a good size was so I could estimate how much effort and money would be involved in housing it safely.
So far the neighbors new dog, (the chicken killing dog went to the shelter after we trapped it) hasn't been over once. So, we may be lucky and not have a problem anymore anyways. BUT, I know that the recipe for disaster that created the last problem dog is still there just with a new dog. It's still bored because it's outside all day alone, and that tends to lead to digging into other more interesting yards.

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couldnt you do like those people who do the screened in pools?? those are for huge areas and at same time are walk in and are completely covered. i dont know how much it cost but it could work and just put a fence along the outside so the dogs dont rip through the screen or something, i dunno just a suggestion. What part of FL do you live in??

I've seen dogs go right though that screen room screening, but, the general idea, a screened/wire mesh walk in enclosure is what I'm leaning towards..
I'm in the orange city, deland, daytona beach area..

 

[Tom]

Your ten by twenty five would work for several years and your 100x200' yard sounds like it MIGHT work with some minor adjustments. You must really have your heart set on a sulcata if you've given it this much thought. I can't argue. They are great. Best tortoise personality, by far in my opinion.

 

[Laura]

What Tom said..
Maybe add a Hot Wire?
And.. There are NO stupid questions..

 

[JenniferinFL]

Your ten by twenty five would work for several years and your 100x200' yard sounds like it MIGHT work with some minor adjustments. You must really have your heart set on a sulcata if you've given it this much thought. I can't argue. They are great. Best tortoise personality, by far in my opinion.

I just think that more than likely, if I'm going to find a tortoise in need of help it's going to be a sulcata. Partly because they're the least expensive tort to purchase at the local pet shop and partly due to their size and the high rate of foreclosures around here. If you lose your house, you really can't take a 45 lb sulcata to live in an apartment. And, I know how these things work..lol
It pretty much always works where I'll run into one where I least expected and then have to make a split second decision. I don't like split second decisions, so I like to analyze and already have the decision made way in advance. So, the decision is, if I come across a mid sized juvie that would be happy with my current enclosure, the answer will be yes I'll take him and then I'll gradually build a larger enclosure so it's ready when he needs it.

I finally did find a local-ish reptile rescue that did respond to my inquiry. They said they don't get many in, but they do turn away the largest ones due to lack of space at their location. They have one sulcata that won't be ready for adoption for a couple months. Interestingly, they're taking in a redfoot but it won't be ready for adoption for awhile. But, he said he'd let me know when one came up for adoption.
So, who knows what that will bring? It sounds like they keep them several months before adopting them out. But, should be interesting!
I just wanted to make sure I'd thought about it thoroughly so that I wouldn't take in a tortoise I can't really house well. I went out and measured around where the current enclosure is, and there's plenty of room to expand that and it's a good mix of sun and shade.
OR, may just modify the backyard right by the house and add a hotwire..
At least either one is do-able..
Thanks!

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I think your ten by twenty five would work, it sounds great to me and you already have a shed there which you can make a tortoise shelter. That's exciting!!! You're half way to getting a new tortoise woo hoo!!!