solarmeter best use

Tom

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all the reptibark pics look way bigger than 1/4 inch tho. it must be deceiving in the pics i guess.

This is the best i could find shipped. youre right very expensive : https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MRB6F9Q/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

But this product is sterilized and heated so it might be worth it
That is way over priced. You can get 24 quarts of repti-bark for $18.09. That's 10 more quarts for about half the money.
 

Salspi

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I hear ya. The loaded with mites complaint is what bugs me(excuse pun). But i guess ill throw it in the freezer for a couple days and then boil the s!@t out of it.
 

TeamZissou

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@TeamZissou I have never worked with Egyptians but this sounds close to how I would try to keep them and I want to see how it turns out. Like Tom, I am not really keen on the oyster shell substrate. The breeders promoting this have clearly perfected husbandry for the breeding adults, but not necessarily hatchlings, which commonly end up pyramiding.

With regards to the MVB’s, I have been testing MVB versus T8 this year and saw no difference, even with a 70W MVB at 8” distance from hatchlings. This was South African leopards. But, I am seeing differences between species in that 90-100% humidity works for leopards and redfoots, mostly works (not perfect) for platynota, but no bueno for Chacos (they still pyramid). I have some hunches as to why but need more hatchlings to test it all.

The Egyptian's the the German book (Biedenweg and Schramm 2019) range from being exceptionally smooth (almost like wild specimens) while others aren't perfectly smooth, they are generally smoother than what you see in the US. Of course, you never know the exact history of a tortoise, especially in this format.

Here's a synopsis of the setup:
  • Enclosure: closed chamber, 40"x 80" for adults, 2x4' for hatchlings
  • Lighting: fluorescent tubes UVA + UVB separate T5 fixtures. MVBs (70W) for basking, dialed in for UVI of 3. Additional lighting from LEDs.
  • Humidity: (ultrasonic) fogger run in the morning to bring the ambient humidity up to 55-65%. Night humidity raises to 70-80%. Additional water is sprayed from a garden sprayer, at most 2-3 times per week. The hatchling chamber receives more frequent spraying of water.
  • Substrate: building sand and loam power mixture. The loam is not soil, but rather a mixture of sand, silt, and clay particles. I suppose this may be a difference between US and EU definitions.
  • Halved clay pot hides buried in the sand. These also have humidity sensors at the base of the pot sticking through what is normally the drain hole. However, they do not say what humidity level is maintained in the hide.
  • Forced estivation: they make a big deal about emulating a natural yearly cycle in the book, so they crank up the heat in the closed chamber to 100 F to force the tortoises to estivate for a few months in the summer.
  • Soaking: not a lot of info here. Adults are soaked every 1-2 weeks. Hatchling are soaking frequency ('every now and then')
That's really a lot of UV. My main question is, with such high UV levels (from UVA, UVB, and MVBs)--and assuming this contributes to pyramiding, what could possibly offset that as a source of pyramiding aside from the difference in substrate and/or more humid hide opportunities? I know sand does not have a good track record, but it may allow the hatchlings to dig down and have moist sand directly on the shell compared to the oyster shell, which doesn't afford this opportunity. Of course, with oyster shell, people provide humid hides, but that may not be enough to offset being out and relatively dry the rest of the time.

It's worth noting that they're not advocating constant use of the fogger. The use of the fogger is a lot like Tom's friend does, running it in the morning for a while and then off. Additional humidity is added via the spraying.

The other big unknown is the effect of the forced estivation for four months. They do this even with hatchlings. While this doesn't sound like a great idea to me, it could affect growth. Cranking up the heat forces the tortoises into the hides for extended periods of time. They still receive drinking water during this time, but the authors do not spray the substrate. It seems like they still run the fogger during this period, since the same humidity levels of 50-60% during the day are maintained.

Anyway, that's why I wondered about running LEDs for ambient lighting, with UVB on for an hour a day. I figured the sand was worth a try even though it runs counter to what's advocated here on the forum. I guess we won't know until someone tries it. Either way, I think all we can say is that the ideal conditions to raise smooth Egyptians is still an open question.
 

Salspi

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The Egyptian's the the German book (Biedenweg and Schramm 2019) range from being exceptionally smooth (almost like wild specimens) while others aren't perfectly smooth, they are generally smoother than what you see in the US. Of course, you never know the exact history of a tortoise, especially in this format.

Here's a synopsis of the setup:
  • Enclosure: closed chamber, 40"x 80" for adults, 2x4' for hatchlings
  • Lighting: fluorescent tubes UVA + UVB separate T5 fixtures. MVBs (70W) for basking, dialed in for UVI of 3. Additional lighting from LEDs.
  • Humidity: (ultrasonic) fogger run in the morning to bring the ambient humidity up to 55-65%. Night humidity raises to 70-80%. Additional water is sprayed from a garden sprayer, at most 2-3 times per week. The hatchling chamber receives more frequent spraying of water.
  • Substrate: building sand and loam power mixture. The loam is not soil, but rather a mixture of sand, silt, and clay particles. I suppose this may be a difference between US and EU definitions.
  • Halved clay pot hides buried in the sand. These also have humidity sensors at the base of the pot sticking through what is normally the drain hole. However, they do not say what humidity level is maintained in the hide.
  • Forced estivation: they make a big deal about emulating a natural yearly cycle in the book, so they crank up the heat in the closed chamber to 100 F to force the tortoises to estivate for a few months in the summer.
  • Soaking: not a lot of info here. Adults are soaked every 1-2 weeks. Hatchling are soaking frequency ('every now and then')
That's really a lot of UV. My main question is, with such high UV levels (from UVA, UVB, and MVBs)--and assuming this contributes to pyramiding, what could possibly offset that as a source of pyramiding aside from the difference in substrate and/or more humid hide opportunities? I know sand does not have a good track record, but it may allow the hatchlings to dig down and have moist sand directly on the shell compared to the oyster shell, which doesn't afford this opportunity. Of course, with oyster shell, people provide humid hides, but that may not be enough to offset being out and relatively dry the rest of the time.

It's worth noting that they're not advocating constant use of the fogger. The use of the fogger is a lot like Tom's friend does, running it in the morning for a while and then off. Additional humidity is added via the spraying.

The other big unknown is the effect of the forced estivation for four months. They do this even with hatchlings. While this doesn't sound like a great idea to me, it could affect growth. Cranking up the heat forces the tortoises into the hides for extended periods of time. They still receive drinking water during this time, but the authors do not spray the substrate. It seems like they still run the fogger during this period, since the same humidity levels of 50-60% during the day are maintained.

Anyway, that's why I wondered about running LEDs for ambient lighting, with UVB on for an hour a day. I figured the sand was worth a try even though it runs counter to what's advocated here on the forum. I guess we won't know until someone tries it. Either way, I think all we can say is that the ideal conditions to raise smooth Egyptians is still an open question.
Thanks for taking the time to post this!
 

Salspi

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@Salspi , what was your soaking protocol for this tortoise?

Everyday 10 min.... especially as hatchlings. One point id like to make is that you are Godzilla to a one inch hatchling. when you pick them up to put in the soak, only lift them a few inches off the substrate. And, soak them in the enclosure in the vicinity of the basking area. 95-100 degree water. I always picked them up slowly and calmly and they seemed to be less stressed by this.
 

Salspi

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However, i was doing that without a fogger setup. Im telling you, watch for nose bubbles. As soon as you see them, you know to back off on the water.
 

Salspi

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To be clear, I had my fogger set to 60% humidity. I didn’t have the 1 hour every morning system. Maybe this was the reason I encountered problems.
 

turtlesteve

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The Egyptian's the the German book (Biedenweg and Schramm 2019) range from being exceptionally smooth (almost like wild specimens) while others aren't perfectly smooth, they are generally smoother than what you see in the US. Of course, you never know the exact history of a tortoise, especially in this format.

Here's a synopsis of the setup:
  • Enclosure: closed chamber, 40"x 80" for adults, 2x4' for hatchlings
  • Lighting: fluorescent tubes UVA + UVB separate T5 fixtures. MVBs (70W) for basking, dialed in for UVI of 3. Additional lighting from LEDs.
  • Humidity: (ultrasonic) fogger run in the morning to bring the ambient humidity up to 55-65%. Night humidity raises to 70-80%. Additional water is sprayed from a garden sprayer, at most 2-3 times per week. The hatchling chamber receives more frequent spraying of water.
  • Substrate: building sand and loam power mixture. The loam is not soil, but rather a mixture of sand, silt, and clay particles. I suppose this may be a difference between US and EU definitions.
  • Halved clay pot hides buried in the sand. These also have humidity sensors at the base of the pot sticking through what is normally the drain hole. However, they do not say what humidity level is maintained in the hide.
  • Forced estivation: they make a big deal about emulating a natural yearly cycle in the book, so they crank up the heat in the closed chamber to 100 F to force the tortoises to estivate for a few months in the summer.
  • Soaking: not a lot of info here. Adults are soaked every 1-2 weeks. Hatchling are soaking frequency ('every now and then')
That's really a lot of UV. My main question is, with such high UV levels (from UVA, UVB, and MVBs)--and assuming this contributes to pyramiding, what could possibly offset that as a source of pyramiding aside from the difference in substrate and/or more humid hide opportunities? I know sand does not have a good track record, but it may allow the hatchlings to dig down and have moist sand directly on the shell compared to the oyster shell, which doesn't afford this opportunity. Of course, with oyster shell, people provide humid hides, but that may not be enough to offset being out and relatively dry the rest of the time.

It's worth noting that they're not advocating constant use of the fogger. The use of the fogger is a lot like Tom's friend does, running it in the morning for a while and then off. Additional humidity is added via the spraying.

The other big unknown is the effect of the forced estivation for four months. They do this even with hatchlings. While this doesn't sound like a great idea to me, it could affect growth. Cranking up the heat forces the tortoises into the hides for extended periods of time. They still receive drinking water during this time, but the authors do not spray the substrate. It seems like they still run the fogger during this period, since the same humidity levels of 50-60% during the day are maintained.

Anyway, that's why I wondered about running LEDs for ambient lighting, with UVB on for an hour a day. I figured the sand was worth a try even though it runs counter to what's advocated here on the forum. I guess we won't know until someone tries it. Either way, I think all we can say is that the ideal conditions to raise smooth Egyptians is still an open question.

I now run LEDs with T5 for juvenile Chacos, it was one of several changes to fight pyramiding. Adding LEDs made the enclosure very bright and changes their behavior. They spend probably 21-22 hours a day hiding and are out only to eat and drink. I also gave them some live grass to hide under since I can now keep the grass alive and growing indoors. On a hunch I also dropped humidity to 85-90% at night and 60-65% mid-day. The last thing I did was change to a calcium supplement with a Ca / P ratio of about 3-4 and quit using straight calcium carbonate.

I have seen an immediate improvement. The problem is, I changed a whole bunch of stuff at the same time and I don’t know what was actually important.
 

Salspi

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I now run LEDs with T5 for juvenile Chacos, it was one of several changes to fight pyramiding. Adding LEDs made the enclosure very bright and changes their behavior. They spend probably 21-22 hours a day hiding and are out only to eat and drink. I also gave them some live grass to hide under since I can now keep the grass alive and growing indoors. On a hunch I also dropped humidity to 85-90% at night and 60-65% mid-day. The last thing I did was change to a calcium supplement with a Ca / P ratio of about 3-4 and quit using straight calcium carbonate.

I have seen an immediate improvement. The problem is, I changed a whole bunch of stuff at the same time and I don’t know what was actually important.
What night time temps are you keeping?
 

TeamZissou

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I now run LEDs with T5 for juvenile Chacos, it was one of several changes to fight pyramiding. Adding LEDs made the enclosure very bright and changes their behavior. They spend probably 21-22 hours a day hiding and are out only to eat and drink. I also gave them some live grass to hide under since I can now keep the grass alive and growing indoors. On a hunch I also dropped humidity to 85-90% at night and 60-65% mid-day. The last thing I did was change to a calcium supplement with a Ca / P ratio of about 3-4 and quit using straight calcium carbonate.

I have seen an immediate improvement. The problem is, I changed a whole bunch of stuff at the same time and I don’t know what was actually important.

It's good news that all the changes are working,

What was the calcium product that you switched to called?
 

turtlesteve

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It's good news that all the changes are working,

What was the calcium product that you switched to called?

Powdered bone meal, which has a 2:1 Ca to P ratio by itself. So, I mix with the calcium carbonate I already had (1/3 to 1/2 of the total is calcium carbonate).
 

Salspi

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The Egyptian's the the German book (Biedenweg and Schramm 2019) range from being exceptionally smooth (almost like wild specimens) while others aren't perfectly smooth, they are generally smoother than what you see in the US. Of course, you never know the exact history of a tortoise, especially in this format.

Here's a synopsis of the setup:
  • Enclosure: closed chamber, 40"x 80" for adults, 2x4' for hatchlings
  • Lighting: fluorescent tubes UVA + UVB separate T5 fixtures. MVBs (70W) for basking, dialed in for UVI of 3. Additional lighting from LEDs.
  • Humidity: (ultrasonic) fogger run in the morning to bring the ambient humidity up to 55-65%. Night humidity raises to 70-80%. Additional water is sprayed from a garden sprayer, at most 2-3 times per week. The hatchling chamber receives more frequent spraying of water.
  • Substrate: building sand and loam power mixture. The loam is not soil, but rather a mixture of sand, silt, and clay particles. I suppose this may be a difference between US and EU definitions.
  • Halved clay pot hides buried in the sand. These also have humidity sensors at the base of the pot sticking through what is normally the drain hole. However, they do not say what humidity level is maintained in the hide.
  • Forced estivation: they make a big deal about emulating a natural yearly cycle in the book, so they crank up the heat in the closed chamber to 100 F to force the tortoises to estivate for a few months in the summer.
  • Soaking: not a lot of info here. Adults are soaked every 1-2 weeks. Hatchling are soaking frequency ('every now and then')
That's really a lot of UV. My main question is, with such high UV levels (from UVA, UVB, and MVBs)--and assuming this contributes to pyramiding, what could possibly offset that as a source of pyramiding aside from the difference in substrate and/or more humid hide opportunities? I know sand does not have a good track record, but it may allow the hatchlings to dig down and have moist sand directly on the shell compared to the oyster shell, which doesn't afford this opportunity. Of course, with oyster shell, people provide humid hides, but that may not be enough to offset being out and relatively dry the rest of the time.

It's worth noting that they're not advocating constant use of the fogger. The use of the fogger is a lot like Tom's friend does, running it in the morning for a while and then off. Additional humidity is added via the spraying.

The other big unknown is the effect of the forced estivation for four months. They do this even with hatchlings. While this doesn't sound like a great idea to me, it could affect growth. Cranking up the heat forces the tortoises into the hides for extended periods of time. They still receive drinking water during this time, but the authors do not spray the substrate. It seems like they still run the fogger during this period, since the same humidity levels of 50-60% during the day are maintained.

Anyway, that's why I wondered about running LEDs for ambient lighting, with UVB on for an hour a day. I figured the sand was worth a try even though it runs counter to what's advocated here on the forum. I guess we won't know until someone tries it. Either way, I think all we can say is that the ideal conditions to raise smooth Egyptians is still an open question.

My guess is the forced estivation is the reason they are getting smoother shells. If they have a 3 month period where they are staying in a humid hide 95% of the day and out of any UV/Basking areas, this could easily be the reason why they are getting smoother shells in general. After speaking with Egyptian breeders, who swear by oyster shell for many reasons, it seems the perfect setup is to provide a dry substrate and humidity at the same time. Which is hard because they negate each other. My goal going forward is to keep the oyster shell substrate but try to keep a stable 50% humidity level in the enclosure. Supplementing this with humid hides ( terra cotta pot with saucer on top filled with water) will provide an area with 80+RH% for them to use. Other hides provided will have no water on top and just have the same humidity as the enclosure. The tortoises will tell me what they prefer. I think I may try the estivation technique this coming summer. If you think about it, sitting in an 80+% humid hide with 100 degree temperature for 3 months every year has got to be a main reason the europeans get smoother shells than the americans. Opinions?
 
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Salspi

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Also, the humidity i provide will only come from water dishes, humidifying the tortoise room and water filled terra cotta saucers. My experience with foggers is terrible.
 
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TeamZissou

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My guess is the forced estivation is the reason they are getting smoother shells. If they have a 3 month period where they are staying in a humid hide 95% of the day and out of any UV/Basking areas, this could easily be the reason why they are getting smoother shells in general. After speaking with Egyptian breeders, who swear by oyster shell for many reasons, it seems the perfect setup is to provide a dry substrate and humidity at the same time. Which is hard because they negate each other. My goal going forward is to keep the oyster shell substrate but try to keep a stable 50% humidity level in the enclosure. Supplementing this with humid hides ( terra cotta pot with saucer on top filled with water) will provide an area with 80+RH% for them to use. Other hides provided will have no water on top and just have the same humidity as the enclosure. The tortoises will tell me what they prefer. I think I may try the estivation technique this coming summer. If you think about it, sitting in an 80+% humid hide with 100 degree temperature for 3 months every year has got to be a main reason the europeans get smoother shells than the americans. Opinions?

The estivation is probably a factor. I don't know if the hides are super humid during the estivation. They seem to discontinue the misting of the substrate during that period. I also do not know if the feeding frequency/amount of food during that time is reduced. They didn't go into super detail about how much more misting the hatchling enclosure received, but it's more frequent compared to the adults.

The estivation may just be another mechanism that forces the tortoises into the hides. Another could possibly be that the light intensity is higher. With all the lighting sources, the overall intensity may also play a role in encouraging more time spent in the humid hides. This is the theme of what @turtlesteve talks about regarding his Chacos.

To be sure, the Egyptians in the book (and often on the Germany-based T. Kleinmanni group on Facebook) aren't perfectly smooth; there is still often a bit of pyramiding. On balance though, they are far smoother compared to US Egyptians.

The answer might end up being that baby Egyptians (any many other species) need to spend 20+ hours per day in humid hides to end up not pyramided. We as keepers like to see activity, but we may have to make peace with the fact that they just need to hide more.
 

Salspi

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That is my point. It doesnt matter what you do to cause them to spend more time in the hides. Whether you use higher temps, brighter lights or high UV levels, it doesnt matter. Its just a trigger to get them into the hides. And if you combine that with a hide that is comfortably humid for them, good results might be the outcome. Basically, its the same reason that people like the enclosed chamber with 80% humidity and 80 degrees for other tortoises. However, in my experience, egyptians need to be able to get out of the humidity if they want to. So, they may be a little bit different. Im going with the 50% humidity enclosure and humid hide route while on oyster shell substrate. We shall see what happens. This makes the most sense to me after speaking with knowledgeable breeders. As was told to me, the tortoises will tell you what they prefer. Seems logical.
 
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