Soaking and water dish question

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redkim

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Elaborate away Terry - this is a great discussion IMO.

I know that for my setup I have a hot and cold end on my tank - Motor "motors" around and sets himself up how he likes best. There is always water and he dips himself regularly, I only soak him if he start to look dry to alleviate my own concerns. I feed him every other day - trying to find that balance between food and exercise levels. And when I do feed him - rarely does he get lettuce greens, mostly chopped soaked hay with fresh clover or grass mixed in. I do put the TNT supplement on once a week. These are simply my choices in how to do things based on listening and reading as much as I can and the learning never stops.

I do the same for every one of my other animals too - trying to stick with the K.I.S.S. method as any animal can be "over-cared" for- just look in any horse catalog in the supplement section - 5 to 10 pages later you're too confused to make a choice! I will say that I do have a couple of animals that might get something extra once in awhile, my parrot and my tort, and that's because they live inside mostly (esp during winter) and so do not have access to all the good the outside has to offer. My horses and dogs do great on a good-quality feed, clean water, sunshine, and room to roam. Motor will graduate to that one day too.
 

tortoisenerd

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I have a question: Would regular soaking of a tortoise ever be able to cause harm to the animal?

If it puts the human at ease and has the potential of being helpful to the animal, and no risk of being harmful, I can't see a problem with it. Hatchlings are fragile and I would rather cross dehydration off my list of things to worry about. I soak my little guy every other day. If he looks like he wants to get out or is under stress, I take him out. I haven't seen him access water on his own in his enclosure, and frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if he'd have trouble with the bowl. When keeping the animal in a captive environment we can try to simulate their native environment, but things like rain puddles that they may use in the wild, or dew on plants, can't so easily be duplicated.

If an animal is known to fulfill it's own water needs I see no problem with letting it do so on it's own and not soak it. Until the owner can verify that, better to be safe than sorry.
 

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I'll admit I haven't been keeping a tortoise for any real length of time but I do have some (again, little in the big picture) experience keeping geckos and snakes. I have to agree with Terry and redkim. I provide everyone with a good temperature gradient and adequately sized water dishes...the snakes can soak (and do) if they want to, the geckos can drink and walk through it as can Turtle. His dish is slightly sunken in his substrate, I have seen him drink and he certainly plows through it multiple times daily. I don't soak him as I really don't think he needs to be, he pees and poops regularly and is not dehydrated anymore (he was when I got him). I do clean his plastron off with a moist cloth and do give him a good 'all over' wipe to keep him clean. He is not a hatchling or young tort but an adult and he does seem to know what's best as far as drinking and basking or using a hide.
I let him decide when he wants to be handled...if he comes running over and gets on my hand I will take him out and let him wander around, if he stays put I leave him be. I do the same with the geckos and snakes, well, the snakes won't get in my hand but they do come to the door of their cages and will come out if I open it for them.
When I first got him (and everyone) I did a ton of research and asked questions here (and got great advice, thanks!) to be sure he was set up correctly and eating the right things but do try to 'let them be' as much as possible. That is not to say I don't check them every day, monitor the bathroom habits and give them a good once over. I get yearly fecals (or more often if there is a change) and take them to the vet if there is cause for concern...it's not like I just stuck them in a cage and left them there.
I do believe these little fellas can be killed with kindness, they are not dogs and don't do well with stress...they don't crave our companionship and interactions really. I've seen it all too often with baby geckos and over-zealous new keepers, they do too much for them and literally stress the poor things to the point of killing them. We have to remember that they are wild animals that will never be domesticated and too much intervention is equally as bad as not enough. It's not necessarily easy to find the right mix but, as Terry said, sometimes less is more.
Just my .02 :)
 

Redfoot NERD

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tortoisenerd said:
I have a question: Would regular soaking of a tortoise ever be able to cause harm to the animal?

If it puts the human at ease and has the potential of being helpful to the animal, and no risk of being harmful, I can't see a problem with it. Hatchlings are fragile and I would rather cross dehydration off my list of things to worry about. I soak my little guy every other day. If he looks like he wants to get out or is under stress, I take him out. I haven't seen him access water on his own in his enclosure, and frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if he'd have trouble with the bowl. When keeping the animal in a captive environment we can try to simulate their native environment, but things like rain puddles that they may use in the wild, or dew on plants, can't so easily be duplicated.

If an animal is known to fulfill it's own water needs I see no problem with letting it do so on it's own and not soak it. Until the owner can verify that, better to be safe than sorry.

Would regular soaking of a tortoise ever be able to cause harm to the animal?

Of course! It's the stress factor.. that's all I've been trying to get across for the past couple of YEARS!

We cook them to the point that we are afraid they are dehydrated.. then this huge 'monster' [ your hand ] comes down out of their sky to eat them.. and we put them in this even smaller space that they can't escape from.. [ now afraid they're going to drown - more stress - ] which scares the poop out of them.. in water with either chemicals from the tap or chemicals to offset the chemicals in the tap.. which is either too warm or too cool.. that they don't want to be in in the first place.

All they were trying to do was find a water dish that was out of the burning sun that was at 'room temperature' that they could get a drink from or "cool-their-heels" in! [ how am I doin' "red"? ]

Have I answered your Q? yet tortnerd? Maybe not.. you're going to love this one!

On my 'site I got a Q? from someone that had a wall in their basement that reminded me of "Jeopardy" [ TV show ] - several aquariums in a bookcase fashion. Each one.. from what I could tell.. were set-up the same way with hatchling tortoises from everywhere.. ALL hemisphere's - desert.. savannah.. forest & jungle. All the same lighting, etc. - in aquariums.. no "sight-barrier" on any of them [ they wanted to be able to sit back in their recliners and drink wine and watch their "investment" ]. They asked me what I thought.. so I told them. I don't think they liked my answer.

Are we setting-up a show-case environment to show off.. which happens to have a tortoise in it - to be "proud" of and get strokes from others'. { all the while supporting the petstores and Vets. ( I'll leave those alone for now ).. that are clueless } Or are we setting-up a "home" for our beloved critters where they can thrive in and we can observe and enjoy from a distance?

It is easy to duplicate 'rain-puddles'.. lids from 'butter' tubs to gallon plastic ice cream pails.. to flower-pot bottoms w/flaired rims, etc.
IT'S ALL IN THE SET-UP! And they expect/deserve attention everyday. [ I maintain several.. ranging from 1 1/2" hatchlings that are still absorbing their yolk-sac to egg-laying adults ] And you would be amazed how easy it can be.. when set-up according to their needs!

Everytime I post [ from now on ] you can expect this type of response. I'll either offend someone or inspire someone.. only you can choose what's best for yours.

NERD
 

redkim

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Good question Kate, and good answer Terry. When Kate first posted the question my brain did go - yeah is water really that harmful? and then in seeing your answer I realized I was not thinking of the animal. Well, I mean I was and I wasn't. I guess I'm not perfect - dangit.

Today I just got a new water dish for Motor, right now he has a shallow sunken dish that works well. However my NEW dish has a nice sloping ramp up from the floor then down into the water rather than a short drop-off edge. This way it's even easier and safer for him to get to his water - I am pretty tickled with it. It will also keep his water cleaner a little longer (and I only use purified water, no chemicals but also no beneficial minerals, hmmmmm) because rather than going straight off his substrate into the water he will go up the slope hopefully knocking most of the dirt off before he gets to water.

Thanks also for the story on the rack of aquariums. Motor is in an aquarium right now - a huge one and while he has not had problems with the glass I realize that I only have the back side that could be considered covered by a wall. Looking at it from Motor's perspective that leaves 3 sides open. Now he's a happy friendly little guy, will approach the front side when he sees us and watches the goings on. If he's in his hide and I come over and call out to him he does come out too. So given that he does not seem stressed (and I could be wrong) by the way I have the setup - what do you recommend Terry?
Leave it as is as maybe some stimulation is ok (and they do get stimulated in the wild) or cover about halfway up this weekend - not for confusion but so he'll feel more secure.

A side note as to stimulation. Not all stimulation is bad, even that which might cause a little stress. Gets the brain going and the system functioning at a higher rate. The stimulation I am talking about is Behavioral Enrichment. (Laura - you are an EATM grad, you ate, drank and slept this too!) Any way that you can do something to stimulate an animal and get them out of a daily rut is considered B.E. Sometimes it is in the form of putting food somewhere new or even in a box for an animal who might like foraging. It could be simply rearranging a habitat or adding in new stuff. (I like to plant wheat grass periodically for Motor - he doesn't eat it he mostly just snuggles up under it.) There is an example of a more stressful B.E. experiment - I think it was L.A. Zoo where the zebra keepers got some poop from the lion keepers and put it in the zebra enclosure. Those zebras had gotten fat and content in their pen and one day they come out and get a whiff of a natural predator (or maybe just simply a new smell to them) and boyo, were those zebras on high alert! You might say stressed but for one day they were out of their rut. Rather than sleep and swish flies and eat they were heads up, testing the air, watching and listening, alert and careful. They did not get hurt and there wer no lasting effects from this.

So then - is all stress bad? Or do we possibly under-stimulate our animals trying to keep them safe and wrapped in cotton?

Back atcha Terry - I really want to hear your take on this as you raise some great points and get me thinking . . . that would be MY Behavioral Enrichment for the day I guess!
 

Redfoot NERD

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tortoisenerd said:
Thanks for your opinion--you answered my question.

OPINION?

Facts based on experience answer Q?'s I answered your question!

Terry K
 

Jacqui

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redkim said:
So then - is all stress bad? Or do we possibly under-stimulate our animals trying to keep them safe and wrapped in cotton?

Jumping in on this...

I think stress is good, not an over abundance of it, but some. If they don't get little doses of stress, then along comes something very stressful in their life and they don't know how to handle it. By little stresses I mean the type that would have happened if they lived "real" tortoise lives. We humans have this need to finely chop their foods, give them access to fresh water every day, set lights on timers, have set temps, ect.., I think we need to give them little stresses...foods they have to tear up themselves, a day or two without food, rainy days with limited lights and dripping rain showers, changes in temps. I think that is one reason why outside raised torts seem "happier" and healthier. They have stress in their lives, they have naturalness, ect..,

I watched my husband one day rush to the aid of an over turned turtle. I told him he needed to curb that response. The turtle was in no danger and needed to right himself. To just sit back and give him a few minutes, before rushing in. Those moments of stress and learning are important to his future survival.

I don't handle my torts much, but I do agree we need to do some handling of them. They need to learn a human picking them up is not life threatening. At some point in captivity, they will need to be handled perhaps for a health reason or maybe to be transferred into a new environment. Yes it stresses them, some much more then others. However if they have been given small doses of human interaction, the stress level stays much lower when the need for longer handling arises.

Redfoot NERD said:
Or feed them the "natural" nutrients they need so we don't have to supplement them.. which can be done very easily.

Had a little chuckle reading this part. I must have missed on the map where to find the bags of cat food plants. :p

Don't I recall your care sheets also recommend using a supplement?...calcium I think it's called...:rolleyes:

Redfoot NERD said:
Why are they ALL smart enough in the wild.. but not in captivity?

Are they really smart enough in the wild? Of is that another one of the reason hatchling mortality in the wild is so high?
 

Redfoot NERD

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redkim said:
Good question Kate, and good answer Terry. When Kate first posted the question my brain did go - yeah is water really that harmful? and then in seeing your answer I realized I was not thinking of the animal. Well, I mean I was and I wasn't. I guess I'm not perfect - dangit.

Today I just got a new water dish for Motor, right now he has a shallow sunken dish that works well. However my NEW dish has a nice sloping ramp up from the floor then down into the water rather than a short drop-off edge. This way it's even easier and safer for him to get to his water - I am pretty tickled with it. It will also keep his water cleaner a little longer (and I only use purified water, no chemicals but also no beneficial minerals, hmmmmm) because rather than going straight off his substrate into the water he will go up the slope hopefully knocking most of the dirt off before he gets to water.

Thanks also for the story on the rack of aquariums. Motor is in an aquarium right now - a huge one and while he has not had problems with the glass I realize that I only have the back side that could be considered covered by a wall. Looking at it from Motor's perspective that leaves 3 sides open. Now he's a happy friendly little guy, will approach the front side when he sees us and watches the goings on. If he's in his hide and I come over and call out to him he does come out too. So given that he does not seem stressed (and I could be wrong) by the way I have the setup - what do you recommend Terry?
Leave it as is as maybe some stimulation is ok (and they do get stimulated in the wild) or cover about halfway up this weekend - not for confusion but so he'll feel more secure.

A side note as to stimulation. Not all stimulation is bad, even that which might cause a little stress. Gets the brain going and the system functioning at a higher rate. The stimulation I am talking about is Behavioral Enrichment. (Laura - you are an EATM grad, you ate, drank and slept this too!) Any way that you can do something to stimulate an animal and get them out of a daily rut is considered B.E. Sometimes it is in the form of putting food somewhere new or even in a box for an animal who might like foraging. It could be simply rearranging a habitat or adding in new stuff. (I like to plant wheat grass periodically for Motor - he doesn't eat it he mostly just snuggles up under it.) There is an example of a more stressful B.E. experiment - I think it was L.A. Zoo where the zebra keepers got some poop from the lion keepers and put it in the zebra enclosure. Those zebras had gotten fat and content in their pen and one day they come out and get a whiff of a natural predator (or maybe just simply a new smell to them) and boyo, were those zebras on high alert! You might say stressed but for one day they were out of their rut. Rather than sleep and swish flies and eat they were heads up, testing the air, watching and listening, alert and careful. They did not get hurt and there wer no lasting effects from this.

So then - is all stress bad? Or do we possibly under-stimulate our animals trying to keep them safe and wrapped in cotton?

Back atcha Terry - I really want to hear your take on this as you raise some great points and get me thinking . . . that would be MY Behavioral Enrichment for the day I guess!

Congrats redkim on your realization that tortoise keeping isn't about us. None of us are perfect!

I really wonder what the "pulse-rate" of a tortoise is compared to a mammal in Africa that's the main target of a predatory carnivore?? I would think that it is real low. And since they are not pursued as food.. I wonder if we do need to "stimulate" them. Many times I've seen females eat and drag a male around [ he's leaving "skip-marks" in the dirt ] while he's on top of her just gruntin' and cluckin'.. tryin' to make babies - and she doesn't seem to care! But everytime I come too close they will tuck in - and that includes those that were raised by me from Dec. '98 hatchlings. So where is their stress level?.. Don't know. I choose not to influence it by putting a barrier on the perimeter so they can't see out --- like the old "The grass is greener on the other side of the fence".

I'm not a scientist.. or Vet. Mine just make babies.. and the babies grow up healthy and smooth. What do I know?

Earlier this week I spoke with another member here who mentioned how he appreciated my efforts to help with the care of tortoises.. especially redfoots. As we talked I mentioned how discerning it is when someone comes in and "splits-hairs" and takes things out of context.. and contradicts virtually everything I say. Those that maybe have kept one or a few tortoises alive for a month or year.. doesn't matter.. and as a result [ for the most part ] have opinions or info based on someone elses experience.. not theirs. And that it bothered me because there is a good chance that someone new to tort keeping would be deceived or confused as a result.

His response { as have been others } "When you have the exposure that you have.. you will always have those that are jealous or just need to say something.. just to be heard. Keep in mind how many say they are pleased with the work you do.. compared to those that don't"!

I appreciate those words. And I'm done here.

Terry K
 

Redfoot NERD

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Jacqui said:
redkim said:
So then - is all stress bad? Or do we possibly under-stimulate our animals trying to keep them safe and wrapped in cotton?

Jumping in on this...

I think stress is good, not an over abundance of it, but some. If they don't get little doses of stress, then along comes something very stressful in their life and they don't know how to handle it. By little stresses I mean the type that would have happened if they lived "real" tortoise lives. We humans have this need to finely chop their foods, give them access to fresh water every day, set lights on timers, have set temps, ect.., I think we need to give them little stresses...foods they have to tear up themselves, a day or two without food, rainy days with limited lights and dripping rain showers, changes in temps. I think that is one reason why outside raised torts seem "happier" and healthier. They have stress in their lives, they have naturalness, ect..,

I watched my husband one day rush to the aid of an over turned turtle. I told him he needed to curb that response. The turtle was in no danger and needed to right himself. To just sit back and give him a few minutes, before rushing in. Those moments of stress and learning are important to his future survival.

I don't handle my torts much, but I do agree we need to do some handling of them. They need to learn a human picking them up is not life threatening. At some point in captivity, they will need to be handled perhaps for a health reason or maybe to be transferred into a new environment. Yes it stresses them, some much more then others. However if they have been given small doses of human interaction, the stress level stays much lower when the need for longer handling arises.

Redfoot NERD said:
Or feed them the "natural" nutrients they need so we don't have to supplement them.. which can be done very easily.

Had a little chuckle reading this part. I must have missed on the map where to find the bags of cat food plants. :p

Don't I recall your care sheets also recommend using a supplement?...calcium I think it's called...:rolleyes:

Redfoot NERD said:
Why are they ALL smart enough in the wild.. but not in captivity?

Are they really smart enough in the wild? Of is that another one of the reason hatchling mortality in the wild is so high?




I've been considering some of the things Jacqui has said and thought I better say something for fear that there is confusion or deception.

Not sure what the spirit is behind her remarks.. so let's make sure there is no misunderstanding.

When I mentioned Or feed them the "natural" nutrients they need so we don't have to supplement them.. which can be done very easily. I was referring to what my F&W defines supplement as - " .. to provide for what is lacking in". If and when we feed our [ herbivorous - which is what we're talking about here ] torts the proper greens/grasses, etc. there's no need to supplement. And again a well known sulcata breeder told me that over-supplementing is dangerous for hatchling/juvenile torts especially. Many of the elements in the typical "commercial" reptile vitamins are "fat-soluble".. which means they are retained in the system and can be lethal when injested on a regular basis.. at certain high doses. I would encourage everyone to consult a trusted pharmacist on that.

I DO NOT include any multi-type supplements in the Diet section of my [ REDFOOT.. omnivorous ] caresheet. The only thing I add is Calcium.. which is water soluble - goes right thru the system with the urine - and that is along with the low-fat dry catfood which contains a small amount of D3 - to enhance the calcium that is in it - especially my "egg-laying" females. So mention of the calcium "supplement" on my redfoot caresheet has nothing to do with anything here.

As far as mortality.. [ not sure of Jasqui's source on this ].. but I would imagine it's from "over-collecting" the adults which produce the hatchlings.. DUH:( ---- habitat destruction, etc. And if 'herbivorous' are anything like the redfoots they are laying low the first year or so nibbling on the plant shoots in the underbrush/hide-outs! Which means... there may be more out there than we think.

That reminds me of a friend in FL. who's ladyfriend is from Venezuela.. who has friends that have redfoots running around in their backyards like we might see box turtles here. They breed and feast on the fallen fruit from the trees that grow in the yard! But the smallest ones they ever see are about 4" or so. I wonder where all of the hatchlings are?

Again.. just thought I would comment in case there were any misunderstandings.

Terry K
 

Jacqui

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Redfoot NERD said:
Jacqui said:
Redfoot NERD said:
Why are they ALL smart enough in the wild.. but not in captivity?

Are they really smart enough in the wild? Of is that another one of the reason hatchling mortality in the wild is so high?

I've been considering some of the things Jacqui has said and thought I better say something for fear that there is confusion or deception.

Not sure what the spirit is behind her remarks.. so let's make sure there is no misunderstanding.

When I mentioned Or feed them the "natural" nutrients they need so we don't have to supplement them.. which can be done very easily. I was referring to what my F&W defines supplement as - " .. to provide for what is lacking in". If and when we feed our [ herbivorous - which is what we're talking about here ] torts the proper greens/grasses, etc. there's no need to supplement. And again a well known sulcata breeder told me that over-supplementing is dangerous for hatchling/juvenile torts especially. Many of the elements in the typical "commercial" reptile vitamins are "fat-soluble".. which means they are retained in the system and can be lethal when injested on a regular basis.. at certain high doses. I would encourage everyone to consult a trusted pharmacist on that.

I DO NOT include any multi-type supplements in the Diet section of my [ REDFOOT.. omnivorous ] caresheet. The only thing I add is Calcium.. which is water soluble - goes right thru the system with the urine - and that is along with the low-fat dry catfood which contains a small amount of D3 - to enhance the calcium that is in it - especially my "egg-laying" females. So mention of the calcium "supplement" on my redfoot caresheet has nothing to do with anything here.

As far as mortality.. [ not sure of Jasqui's source on this ].. but I would imagine it's from "over-collecting" the adults which produce the hatchlings.. DUH:( ---- habitat destruction, etc. And if 'herbivorous' are anything like the redfoots they are laying low the first year or so nibbling on the plant shoots in the underbrush/hide-outs! Which means... there may be more out there than we think.

That reminds me of a friend in FL. who's ladyfriend is from Venezuela.. who has friends that have redfoots running around in their backyards like we might see box turtles here. They breed and feast on the fallen fruit from the trees that grow in the yard! But the smallest ones they ever see are about 4" or so. I wonder where all of the hatchlings are?

Again.. just thought I would comment in case there were any misunderstandings.

Terry K

What is behind the spirit of my remarks is just adding more thought and information for the better of the tortoises.

I too hate misunderstandings so:

A supplement is a supplement, doesn't matter if it is calcium or cat food for Vit D....it's a supplement.

Mortality of hatchlings has nothing to do with adults being collected. I am talking just about hatchlings dying as hatchlings. Many studies have shown this with sea turtles being the most reported one. If you compare the same number of hatchlings hatched in captivity to the same number in the wild, Nerd are you saying the same number will survive to yearlings?

Redfoot NERD said:
Earlier this week I spoke with another member here who mentioned how he appreciated my efforts to help with the care of tortoises.. especially redfoots. As we talked I mentioned how discerning it is when someone comes in and "splits-hairs" and takes things out of context.. and contradicts virtually everything I say. Those that maybe have kept one or a few tortoises alive for a month or year.. doesn't matter.. and as a result [ for the most part ] have opinions or info based on someone elses experience.. not theirs. And that it bothered me because there is a good chance that someone new to tort keeping would be deceived or confused as a result.

His response { as have been others } "When you have the exposure that you have.. you will always have those that are jealous or just need to say something.. just to be heard. Keep in mind how many say they are pleased with the work you do.. compared to those that don't"!

I appreciate those words. And I'm done here.

Terry K

I bet it's as discerning as when somebody suggests another is trying to deceptive or as you made Maggie feel earlier about her tortoise care.

Most of the discussion in this thread has been Maggie or Yvonne, neither of whom are new to tortoise keeping and in their own rights have no need for me to say anything, because their record stands for itself.

As for myself, maybe I do need to restate my own experiences because unlike some, I don't need to keep talking about it in every post I make. I am not into show/bragging. I have kept turtles and tortoise off and on since I was in elementary school. I got pretty serious into them for about five years about 15 plus years ago. I had to make a choice at that point to either try to make the relationship with my husband work or give up almost all of the animals because he was jealous of them. Only ones I could convince him belonged to the children could I keep. I finally came to my senses and divorced him. I continued to slowly add an occasional tortoise to the group until about something like 4 or five years ago, when I decided keeping torts was my true passion in life. At first I wasn't as much thinking about breeding, as with creating as natural as possible living quarters outside for them. That does not mean I haven't had breeding successes. I have had the pleasure of several clutches of Bells hingebacks, Ornate and Three toed boxies, an African sideneck, and a softshell turtle too. Then this year my Russians finally got breeding size and I was blessed with a hatchling. I guess that qualifies me as an experienced keeper and breeder. ;)
 

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I have experienced the same problems with soaking......most of my Sulcata's do not like it. One solution I found that works rather well is to spray/mist them with a water bottle....or plant sprayer. They seem to like that must better then being dumped into a bowl of water. It is also more 'natural" for them...you know...rain!
 
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