Slovenian tortoise farm pt2

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-EJ

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As the story goes...

These Redfoots are obviously captive or farm raised and quite impressive.

picturesjim048.jpg


The farm breeds and raises other reptiles and amphibians... such as these European Pond turtles.

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Oh... forgot to mention these... Radiated tortoises... which I'm certain you will see in the pet trade. It's amazing that these are consider 'endangered species'... not.

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As mentioned before... water turtles are also bred. These are amazing and quite rare turtles... I suspect that they will not be rare for long... Indian Tent turtles.

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This is the indoor housing facility. The tortoises that can't handle the climate and those that are being raised are kept here... pretty shabby... huh?

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These are some of the animals being raised in the indoor facilities...

Leopards...

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Sulcatta...

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Hermanns...

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Stars...

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End of part 2
 
M

Maggie Cummings

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Look at how round the baby Sulcata are compared to what we normally see here...and the tent turtle a species I've never heard of and look at it...awesome!
 

-EJ

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That is what a Sulcata is supposed to look like... and raised in Slovenia of all places.

The Tent turtle... I want some.

maggie3fan said:
Look at how round the baby Sulcata are compared to what we normally see here...and the tent turtle a species I've never heard of and look at it...awesome!
 

terracolson

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I could google this name you said, Slovenian, but i hate the wrong info..


Where and what is this place? THe outside looks nice, but the inside looks horrible...
 

-EJ

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ummm... where... Slovenia... What... Tortoise farm.

another ummm... what's horrible... the crowding? Look at the health of the tortoises and tell me what you think about their care.

terracolson said:
I could google this name you said, Slovenian, but i hate the wrong info..


Where and what is this place? THe outside looks nice, but the inside looks horrible...
 

GBtortoises

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Ed- I am curious to know how you know that they are "obviously" captive or farm raised Redfoots? In captivity yes, captive born-I doubt it. More than likely, as with the rest of the breeders they are wild caught as adult or midsize animals for breeding purposes. They also look to be kept in dry desert-like, crowded conditions.

The sulcata in the photos are only days or a few weeks old. They still look that way, as any tortoise does, because they've barely begun to grow. You can't base their looks on something you've seen here in the U.S. unless you know that both examples are the same age.

So far looks like alot of overcrowding going on.

The photo of the Europeans Pond turtles are actually Caspian turtles, not European Ponds.
 

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You are correct in that I can't know but I've gotten RFs from farms and have raised them... that is what they look like. I've seen hundreds of WC RFs... they do not look like that.

Yup... they are crowded... it's a farm. They are not pets. As to the conditions... RFs are super adaptable. That crap about the high humidity is just that... crap.

Thanks for the ID on the water turtles.

I'm curious... are you close friends with Danny?

GBtortoises said:
Ed- I am curious to know how you know that they are "obviously" captive or farm raised Redfoots? In captivity yes, captive born-I doubt it. More than likely, as with the rest of the breeders they are wild caught as adult or midsize animals for breeding purposes. They also look to be kept in dry desert-like, crowded conditions.

The sulcata in the photos are only days or a few weeks old. They still look that way, as any tortoise does, because they've barely begun to grow. You can't base their looks on something you've seen here in the U.S. unless you know that both examples are the same age.

So far looks like alot of overcrowding going on.

The photo of the Europeans Pond turtles are actually Caspian turtles, not European Ponds.
 

GBtortoises

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That crap about high humidity is just that..crap."

Anyone with lots of Redfoot husbandry experience care to confirm that?

Yeah, as a matter of fact Danny and I have shared information, experiences and got turtles and tortoises from each other for over 20 years. He really knows what he's talking about too :)
 

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I'm wondering if you remember the first time we corrisponded?

I guess my RF experience is limited considering that I've only been keeping them for about 10 years.


GBtortoises said:
That crap about high humidity is just that..crap."

Anyone with lots of Redfoot husbandry experience care to confirm that?

Yeah, as a matter of fact Danny and I have shared information, experiences and got turtles and tortoises from each other for over 20 years. He really knows what he's talking about too :)
 

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One thing to consider is that this is not a facility that keeps pet tortoises. It is a breeding facility. Yes, some of the animals look crowded, but take another look. Do you see any dirty, poop-covered tortoises? Are there big piles of poop all over the enclosures? Even with all those sulcatas in one spot, the area is so much cleaner than my Dudley's pen and he's only one animal. Sulcatas poop A LOT! But I don't see one poop in that picture.
 

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That's because smart farmers & breeders know to shovel the poop minutes before the cameras show up!

Nice pics, very interesting.
 

-EJ

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Do you really think my friend was so special that they would do such a thing?... not.



TylerStewart said:
That's because smart farmers & breeders know to shovel the poop minutes before the cameras show up!

Nice pics, very interesting.
 

GBtortoises

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Yvonne, I do agree that the photos are supposed to portray a "breeding facility", a.k.a. farm and fully understand the difference. I grew up on a rabbit farm and my youngest daughter now has a pet rabbit. They are kept different, but still have similar requirements to be kept healthy. How many species of animal does anyone here think reproduce time and time again in crowded, barren conditions? I'm betting more likely that if these places do even actually exist, that they are simply holding facilities where adults are brought in to produce eggs. If they live, they live, if they die there's more egg machines next year. Slovenia is a country that gets cold with a true winter. Can we see their indoor facilities for the Sulcata, Leopards, Redfoots and other non-hibernating species? Where do the other species hibernate? In those above ground hutches? Do 'ya really think so?

Sucessful breeding just doesn't take place because you put a male and female together. Whether you're talking pairs, a small group or a farm full. That is especially true with tortoises. There are other factors that need to be in place first. One of the major ones being security. Tortoises first have to feel safe in their environment. Cover, territory, lack of constant aggression or overcrowding. They all play a role along with other factors that determine if a tortoise is going to sucessfully breed and produce fertile eggs. I don't see that happening in an overcrowded, barren enclosure. I would be curious to know how many males there are in each species group, if any. I still suspect that the majority of the adult animals in the photos are females. Captured to lay eggs that season. I'd also be interested in knowing the mortality rate.

Picking up poop for a picture is the easy part, finding the truth to the above questions doesn't seem to be so easy.

An inquiring mind wants to know.
 

Stephanie Logan

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terracolson said:
I could google this name you said, Slovenian, but i hate the wrong info..

Just for quick clarification: Slovenia is part of the former Yugoslavia, and Slovakia is part of the former Czechoslovakia. I get my soccer players from these two countries mixed up all the time (Matin Skrtel of Liverpool is a Slovakian). :D

So, Ed, does this friend of yours make a living selling his tortoises for pets? Where are his best markets?

Just curious about the purpose and success of this farm.
 

-EJ

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Do you honestly think the photos were set up???????

My friend just popped in. He is nobody special(sorry, Jim).

I'm sitting here thinking... wow.

Very interesting post.

GBtortoises said:
Yvonne, I do agree that the photos are supposed to portray a "breeding facility", a.k.a. farm and fully understand the difference. I grew up on a rabbit farm and my youngest daughter now has a pet rabbit. They are kept different, but still have similar requirements to be kept healthy. How many species of animal does anyone here think reproduce time and time again in crowded, barren conditions? I'm betting more likely that if these places do even actually exist, that they are simply holding facilities where adults are brought in to produce eggs. If they live, they live, if they die there's more egg machines next year. Slovenia is a country that gets cold with a true winter. Can we see their indoor facilities for the Sulcata, Leopards, Redfoots and other non-hibernating species? Where do the other species hibernate? In those above ground hutches? Do 'ya really think so?

Sucessful breeding just doesn't take place because you put a male and female together. Whether you're talking pairs, a small group or a farm full. That is especially true with tortoises. There are other factors that need to be in place first. One of the major ones being security. Tortoises first have to feel safe in their environment. Cover, territory, lack of constant aggression or overcrowding. They all play a role along with other factors that determine if a tortoise is going to sucessfully breed and produce fertile eggs. I don't see that happening in an overcrowded, barren enclosure. I would be curious to know how many males there are in each species group, if any. I still suspect that the majority of the adult animals in the photos are females. Captured to lay eggs that season. I'd also be interested in knowing the mortality rate.

Picking up poop for a picture is the easy part, finding the truth to the above questions doesn't seem to be so easy.

An inquiring mind wants to know.
 

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TylerStewart said:
That's because smart farmers & breeders know to shovel the poop minutes before the cameras show up!

Nice pics, very interesting.

Maybe so, but how do explain how clean the tortoises look? If you hurry up and clean the pen, you would have to take a scrub brush to all the animals too.

I'm with Ed on this one.
 

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Thanks Ed, I'm glad that you find my post interesting. I always find your posts interesting too. Interesting in the way that you like to circle around the questions asked with wit and banter in order to ignore those questions.

Like I said before, I've seen photos of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster too. Yet no one has conclusively proved the existence of either.

Address of the "farms" in Slovenia? Verified owner or business name? Where are all those farm raised offspring? Where did they go? Where are the people who are so proudly doing this, are they camera shy, don't do interviews?

Do I want to believe that these farms exist--yes, I absolutely do! Maybe not in the way that I see some of the tortoises in these photos being maintained. But in a clean, humane way that takes into consideration the species normal activities and habits, yes. If a business like this can help to cut down on the removal of thousands of tortoises annually from the wild and keep up with demand of the pet trade for these animals, yes. I am 100% for that.

But I still have to raise the same questions that I've been asking throughout this post as proof that they do exist. So far questions that have not been answered. Pictures aren't proof unless they can be proven to be true.

So I'll pose a challenge to other TFO members: Do what I just did, as I have done before on this subject, go to your favorite search engine and type in "Tortoise farms in Slovenia", see what you get. Post the results of what you find here. Show me the proof, backed up with physical evidence that there are tortoise farms in Slovenia producing captive born offspring. Physical evidence, not just the same tired photos. Make me a believer.

I'm starting a new thread in debatable topics entitled: "Slovenian tortoise farms, fact or fiction". Post the proof there. Make me a believer because I truly want to be.
 

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emysemys said:
TylerStewart said:
That's because smart farmers & breeders know to shovel the poop minutes before the cameras show up!

Nice pics, very interesting.

Maybe so, but how do explain how clean the tortoises look? If you hurry up and clean the pen, you would have to take a scrub brush to all the animals too.

I'm with Ed on this one.

Just trying to play devil's advocate here... some of the baby sulcatas clearly have feces smeared on their shells. I also noticed the same on at least one of the hermanns torts in the first post. Also, it would be the plastron's that we would need to see, but we are missing the main point here. If there are that many torts in one area, there will be poop, and lots of it. Whether or not the enclosures look clean in the pics does not negate the fact that there are going to be times when they are filthy, guaranteed.

However, I am not picking sides on this one. Whether this is an actual captive breeding facility or just a holding place for imported tortoises, it at least is much nicer than normal importer's facilities, and they are getting hatchlings. I have seen a lot of video of the holding stations for ball pythons in africa and they had probably at least as many eggs just from the gravid females that they took in, so number of eggs doesn't really solve the question. However, like I said, either way it is better than the more common alternative.
 

-EJ

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The owner and the keepers are constantly policing the area.

I don't get how you can say it is a holding area for wild caught animals.

Where did the Sulcatas come from... The Egyptians are definately not wild caught. You can tell by the formation of the shell and the size of the animals.

-ryan- said:
emysemys said:
TylerStewart said:
That's because smart farmers & breeders know to shovel the poop minutes before the cameras show up!

Nice pics, very interesting.

Maybe so, but how do explain how clean the tortoises look? If you hurry up and clean the pen, you would have to take a scrub brush to all the animals too.

I'm with Ed on this one.

Just trying to play devil's advocate here... some of the baby sulcatas clearly have feces smeared on their shells. I also noticed the same on at least one of the hermanns torts in the first post. Also, it would be the plastron's that we would need to see, but we are missing the main point here. If there are that many torts in one area, there will be poop, and lots of it. Whether or not the enclosures look clean in the pics does not negate the fact that there are going to be times when they are filthy, guaranteed.

However, I am not picking sides on this one. Whether this is an actual captive breeding facility or just a holding place for imported tortoises, it at least is much nicer than normal importer's facilities, and they are getting hatchlings. I have seen a lot of video of the holding stations for ball pythons in africa and they had probably at least as many eggs just from the gravid females that they took in, so number of eggs doesn't really solve the question. However, like I said, either way it is better than the more common alternative.


Gary... I never had you pegged as a cynic. I have to ask... do you have AH on speed dial. Your response really threw me back.

As mentioned in a previous post... I have 23 animals from this farm. 9 Hermanns and 14 Marginateds... all perfect animals and definately not wild caught.

The farm is a wholesale operation. As a courtacy to my friends I'm not going to give out an address (I suspect you would know about such respect) although it would not take a rocket scientist to obtain such information.

As I read you post... it blows me away. I suspect that it might be because it cuts into your pocket.

How can you deny the photos?

I can't recall any questions outside of the address... ask away.

Where do you think all these Hermanns and Marginateds are coming from?

Then... All the the Leopards and Russians in the UK?

Man... your post is really disturbing.

What more do you want than the photos posted. Most of these people stay away from the mainstream... for some reason... and it is not because they are trying to hide anything.



GBtortoises said:
Thanks Ed, I'm glad that you find my post interesting. I always find your posts interesting too. Interesting in the way that you like to circle around the questions asked with wit and banter in order to ignore those questions.

Like I said before, I've seen photos of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster too. Yet no one has conclusively proved the existence of either.

Address of the "farms" in Slovenia? Verified owner or business name? Where are all those farm raised offspring? Where did they go? Where are the people who are so proudly doing this, are they camera shy, don't do interviews?

Do I want to believe that these farms exist--yes, I absolutely do! Maybe not in the way that I see some of the tortoises in these photos being maintained. But in a clean, humane way that takes into consideration the species normal activities and habits, yes. If a business like this can help to cut down on the removal of thousands of tortoises annually from the wild and keep up with demand of the pet trade for these animals, yes. I am 100% for that.

But I still have to raise the same questions that I've been asking throughout this post as proof that they do exist. So far questions that have not been answered. Pictures aren't proof unless they can be proven to be true.

So I'll pose a challenge to other TFO members: Do what I just did, as I have done before on this subject, go to your favorite search engine and type in "Tortoise farms in Slovenia", see what you get. Post the results of what you find here. Show me the proof, backed up with physical evidence that there are tortoise farms in Slovenia producing captive born offspring. Physical evidence, not just the same tired photos. Make me a believer.

I'm starting a new thread in debatable topics entitled: "Slovenian tortoise farms, fact or fiction". Post the proof there. Make me a believer because I truly want to be.
 

Candy

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Where's Danny on this thread? I'd like to hear from him too. I think GBtortoises has a valid request....show the proof is it that hard and if they're constantly policing the area I didn't see anyone in any of the photos. Not even by the houses....strange. :( GBtortoises very good that you picked up on the turtles not being right. Good job! :D
 
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