Sleepy Russian or Trying to Hibernate?

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darthsmozers

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Hi everyone,

First, thanks to those who last month answered so many of my questions regarding lighting. http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-10195.html

Tortoisenerd, Meg90, etc, thanks!

My new question is regarding sleeping habits and hibernation.

I have not heard about hibernation until reading some recent threads here, and certaintly nothing when we bought the little guy. He was very active last week and the weekend, especially after a soaking and when we changed out his old substrate and straightened up his terrarium (which we do once every few weeks. We spot check for droppings and urine, but we do a complete cleanup every few weeks).

On Sunday, after we cleaned his terrarium, he spent a lot of time digging a nice hole in the substrate under his log (a usual sleeping spot for him on the cool end, about 75 degrees). He stayed there for 3 days straight without eating or moving. We'd hear him adjusting himself, but he didn't leave the hole. We finally took him out Wednesday evening and put him in front of his food. It took him a few seconds to wake up, but then he promptly ate, basked for a bit, and then went back to his hole. He stayed in there all yesterday (Thursday), and my wife took him out of his hole this morning. He ate, basked, and probably went back to bed (we left for work and won't see him until this afternoon).

I should mention typcially he is waiting by his food dish every morning, ready to eat, like clockwork.

Question: Is his sluggishness due to an eventful weekend (bath, changing his home around, being very active in his terrarium all weekend), or is he actually trying to begin hibernating (which i know nothing about!)

He's a young one, presumably, as Meg90 suggested by the photos I posted in the other thread. We've only had him since Oct 12 of this year, so 2 months. The sluggishness this week, along with knowing nothing about hibernation, makes us wonder what to do or look for.

He has a MVB UVB (Thanks to everyone's help selecting a good one!) and a cool area of 75-80 degrees. UVB is on from 6am to 7pm, and the red light heat lamp is on during the night to keep the terrarium warm on the one end. His log he hides under is on the cool 75-80 side.

Thanks!
 

dmmj

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I have 3 russians 2 which are hibernatin right now, and one sick one who will not be hibernating. Even when you try to fool a tort into not hibernating (not using the word fool in a mean way) they will still try to hibernate sometimes, it ha sto with heat and amount of light and stuff like that, my guess would be that he is most likely trying to hibernate, I could be wring of course but that is my learned guess.
 

darthsmozers

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Should we let him or will it harm it if we keep him from doing so? Like I said we didn't know about hibernation so I don't know where we'd begin without hurting him in some way... :(
 

dmmj

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well the general rule for torts is if you have had them less then a year it is not usually a good idea to let them hibernate simply becuase you do not know of their husbrandy before you got it. also some peopel are vey against hibernating for personal reasons. now my own personal expoerence is that I hibernate my russians unless they are sick which one is right now so she won't be hibernating she is on meds and under a vet care. If you don't want to hibrenate for whatever reason you will need about 12 to 14 hours of light and heat.
 

darthsmozers

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dmmj said:
well the general rule for torts is if you have had them less then a year it is not usually a good idea to let them hibernate simply becuase you do not know of their husbrandy before you got it. also some peopel are vey against hibernating for personal reasons. now my own personal expoerence is that I hibernate my russians unless they are sick which one is right now so she won't be hibernating she is on meds and under a vet care. If you don't want to hibrenate for whatever reason you will need about 12 to 14 hours of light and heat.

Hmm. Well, he has about 12 now, but he hides under his log whenever he wants :p But, there is still the heat. How warm to not hibernate? Cool area is around 75-80F, and warm side is high 80s. Basking area is there as well. I need better thermometers, I have two small needle-style kind. I need to get us a digital one.
 

tortoisenerd

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He is warm enough that you don't have to worry about him actually hibernating, although he may be thinking of it. I would keep him the temperature and light schedule you have as long as you also have a 95 degree basking spot (you didn't specifically say that). Set him in front of the food daily. At this point he is doing pretty well if you got him to eat and bask--don't be worrying until he doesn't want to eat. When they actually hibernate they will not eat for a week or two to empty their stomach. In captivity, even though we keep them in temperatures simulating summer, their internal clock tells them to sloe down for winter/hibernation, and so does the barometer.

Give him more time for his body to realize that you are keeping him up this winter. Try to give him some attention and get him to be active, like you were doing taking him out of the hole. As long as you are not pestering him to the point of stress, that is goof. You can move him to a hide near the warm area (which you should have) to encourage basking and general activity. Yes, if he was wild caught then he's been hibernating every year so that is what he is "programmed" to do. You may be able to trick him though. Some other members will have some tips and pop in soon. Typically they say to try for awhile to keep them up for the winter, but if that fails and all they do is sit there, you can do a short hibernation, and instructions would be provided if you reach that point (it has been discussed here in the past). I don't think you will have to resort to that, and it wouldn't be desirable for your first year with him. Just keep doing what you doing. For future years it is still your choice whether to hibernate or not--personally I think the risks outweigh the benefits.

Side note: if you pick up the messes daily you should only need to do a complete substrate change every few months, not every few weeks. Not sure if you meant straighten up the enclosure or change out all the substrate...

If you are purchasing a new/good thermometer I recommend a laser digital one. The PE1 runs about $25 and is one of the best tortoise product investments I made.

Best wishes.
 

darthsmozers

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tortoisenerd said:
He is warm enough that you don't have to worry about him actually hibernating, although he may be thinking of it. I would keep him the temperature and light schedule you have as long as you also have a 95 degree basking spot (you didn't specifically say that). Set him in front of the food daily. At this point he is doing pretty well if you got him to eat and bask--don't be worrying until he doesn't want to eat. When they actually hibernate they will not eat for a week or two to empty their stomach. In captivity, even though we keep them in temperatures simulating summer, their internal clock tells them to sloe down for winter/hibernation, and so does the barometer.

Give him more time for his body to realize that you are keeping him up this winter. Try to give him some attention and get him to be active, like you were doing taking him out of the hole. As long as you are not pestering him to the point of stress, that is goof. You can move him to a hide near the warm area (which you should have) to encourage basking and general activity. Yes, if he was wild caught then he's been hibernating every year so that is what he is "programmed" to do. You may be able to trick him though. Some other members will have some tips and pop in soon. Typically they say to try for awhile to keep them up for the winter, but if that fails and all they do is sit there, you can do a short hibernation, and instructions would be provided if you reach that point (it has been discussed here in the past). I don't think you will have to resort to that, and it wouldn't be desirable for your first year with him. Just keep doing what you doing. For future years it is still your choice whether to hibernate or not--personally I think the risks outweigh the benefits.

Side note: if you pick up the messes daily you should only need to do a complete substrate change every few months, not every few weeks. Not sure if you meant straighten up the enclosure or change out all the substrate...

If you are purchasing a new/good thermometer I recommend a laser digital one. The PE1 runs about $25 and is one of the best tortoise product investments I made.

Best wishes.

Great info, thanks! I'll reply at length later on. I'll also post (maybe in another thread) a photo of his enclosure to get opinions. But yes, his basking spot under the lamp is in the 90s.

And regarding the substrate, what we do is we line the bottom of the terrarium with newspaper or magazine pages, and then lay about 2 inches of substrate on top of that, more in some areas, less in some areas, depending on the spots he typically favors. No worries, he is not interested in eating any of it. He loves to burrow in the substrate, and sometimes keeps going under the newspapers too. Very funny. Anyway, when he passes solid waste, its easy cleanup. But when he urinates, it goes through the substrate down to the newspaper, and we feel we have to catch it right away so as to dry or remove the newspaper under the substrate (and perhaps some of the substrate itself, a handful or so?) And so we figured after a few weeks of this it would be good to remove it all, save any substrate we could, lay new newspaper, and some new substrate with what we saved of the old (to save money). Maybe that clarifies? Your thoughts are appreciated!
 

darthsmozers

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Well so far this morning we took him out of his hiding spot, and he is continuously eating/basking/eating/basking (slowly working on a cup of greens). This is good!
 

tortoisenerd

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If your enclosure sides are high enough, I think it would cut down on time and money to make the substrate more like 6+ inches deep than 2. Then, urine shouldn't soak all the way to the bottom to the newspaper. What kind of enclosure is it that you need to line with newspaper? What kind of substrate? I think I remember you using more of a bark. If you use something with smaller particles it will be easier for the tort to dig (same with the deeper substrate), and it shouldn't soak through. I suggest coconut coir or aspen. Both can also be bought in bulk. The coconut coir comes in bricks and you can go online to buy a multi pack of it. Aspen shavings can be bought in large bags. I get mine in 45 lb bags at the Bean Farm but go pick it up as I'm local; not sure how much their shipping would be for it. Meg gets it from Walmart for cheap. I like the deep substrate as my little guy loves to dig. Most if not all Russians do. They like to completely burrow so I think for an adult Russian 6 inches is more like a minimum. I use 6-8 inches for my 3 inch Russian! If your enclosure is not plastic (which needs no liner or newspaper), you can use a plastic liner such as pond liner or a heavy duty shower curtain to be able to wipe it. Best wishes.
 

darthsmozers

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tortoisenerd said:
If your enclosure sides are high enough, I think it would cut down on time and money to make the substrate more like 6+ inches deep than 2. Then, urine shouldn't soak all the way to the bottom to the newspaper. What kind of enclosure is it that you need to line with newspaper? What kind of substrate? I think I remember you using more of a bark. If you use something with smaller particles it will be easier for the tort to dig (same with the deeper substrate), and it shouldn't soak through. I suggest coconut coir or aspen. Both can also be bought in bulk. The coconut coir comes in bricks and you can go online to buy a multi pack of it. Aspen shavings can be bought in large bags. I get mine in 45 lb bags at the Bean Farm but go pick it up as I'm local; not sure how much their shipping would be for it. Meg gets it from Walmart for cheap. I like the deep substrate as my little guy loves to dig. Most if not all Russians do. They like to completely burrow so I think for an adult Russian 6 inches is more like a minimum. I use 6-8 inches for my 3 inch Russian! If your enclosure is not plastic (which needs no liner or newspaper), you can use a plastic liner such as pond liner or a heavy duty shower curtain to be able to wipe it. Best wishes.

I will reply perhaps this evening or tomorrow with details about the substrate. The bag we're using now is almost empty, so it may be a good time to get opinions on it. Thanks for your information!

Another good day today. We woke up to find Journey (the Russian) basking. We gave him his greens, and he went right over to eat them up. This is more like it! :)
 

Kayti

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Hey, it sounds like this was already resolved, but I just read this thread and it sounds to me like Journey was just a little stressed from his enclosure being cleaned. My Russians usually spend a lot of time sleeping/hiding after I change their substrate, and even through they are usually piggys, I have to drag them out to get breakfast and a bath. Sometimes they get stressed, and sometimes they don't, but it always resolves itself after four or five days or so.

Good luck with Journey!
 

darthsmozers

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Kayti said:
Hey, it sounds like this was already resolved, but I just read this thread and it sounds to me like Journey was just a little stressed from his enclosure being cleaned. My Russians usually spend a lot of time sleeping/hiding after I change their substrate, and even through they are usually piggys, I have to drag them out to get breakfast and a bath. Sometimes they get stressed, and sometimes they don't, but it always resolves itself after four or five days or so.

Good luck with Journey!

Thanks!
Another successful morning - he was out by his food dish waiting when we woke up. Looks like we're back to normal :)
 

darthsmozers

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Just want to update - he's been very active! His period of hiding must have been partially due to us cleaning out his terrarium, and giving him a bath, all in one day. He was probably a little upset with us. But for the last 2 weeks or so, Journey has been very active with lots of basking, roaming around, eating well, and even pushing his nose against the glass when we're sitting nearby. (Have to laugh at that last one). So thanks again everyone for their insights.
 

ChiKat

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Well I'm glad he seems to be more active! Nelson went through a phase where he was very inactive, but in his case I think it's because he was just a baby. Now he's awake all day and extremely active!

tortoisenerd said:
I like the deep substrate as my little guy loves to dig. Most if not all Russians do. They like to completely burrow so I think for an adult Russian 6 inches is more like a minimum.

Not to hijack but since you mentioned this...Nelson would burrow when I first got him, but now he rarely does!! This is how he sleeps the majority of the time:
100_4841.jpg


His substrate is very deep (probably 5 inches) under the hay there, but he just doesn't burrow! Isn't that strange?
 

darthsmozers

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We definitely need to make his substrate deeper and buy hay. Thanks for the reminder.
Very cute little guy there. Thanks for sharing!
 
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