Sick red foot

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matt41gb

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Hey guys. I'm having some trouble with one of my red foots and I was wondering if any of you have had the same problem.

For the last three days one of my smaller (around 6") male red foots was soaking more than usual. I didn't think anything of it since they always soak. Well, the next day he was still in the water. I picked him up and he seemed a bit weak. He was still strong, eyes bright and alert. Tonight I went in to change the water and he was still in there. I picked him up and placed him on the substrate. He didn't fully support himself under his own weight. He sat for a while, looked around and immediately went back to the water bowl to soak. When he walked it was a very weak stride like he couldn't bear his own weight.

He stays with 10 other red foots, most around the same size as him. All of the others are perfectly healthy and eating, practically plowing one another over to get to the food. He, on the other hand seems disinterested in the food. He has no nasal discharge, he is kept the same as all of the others, food, water, heat. I'm ruling out metabolic bone disease right off since red foots require much less vitamin D than the desert species. They are outside when the weather is nice and I supplement their food with calcium supplement every now and then.

So it's basically lethargy, anorexia, soaking more than usual, and somewhat weak when standing/walking. I'm taking him to my herp vet Monday if this persists. If anyone has gone through this I would appreciate your info. Thanks.

-Matt
 

egyptiandan

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It sounds like a protozoan problem to me. Protozoans upset the gut flora and make an animal not want to eat. A course of Flagyl will do the trick. :D

Danny
 
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Maggie Cummings

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I don't keep redfoots, but I would suggest you separate him from the others and keep him warmer then normal until he gets to the Vet. Do you have a small container you can make into a hospital? He'd be better off warmer and quiet and alone temporarily
 

Candy

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I didn't want to post when I first saw this because I knew that you wanted experiences or advice and I didn't have any on this, but now that Danny and Maggie have posted some information for you I just wanted to wish your little one the best and please let us know what the vet says on Monday.
 

matt41gb

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Thanks guys. I have Flagyl at work, I know the dosage for dogs and cats but not tortoises. I'll see if I can get a fecal from him. There are several bad side effects when using Flagyl in tortoises including paralysis. I'll keep everyone updated. Thanks for everyone's concern.

-Matt
 

cdmay

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In addition to Flagyl, Panacur (Fenbendazole) reportedly can also clear up flagellates and it is much easier to feed to a tortoise. Plus, there isn't much risk with it. It isn't bitter like Flagyl and can easily be mixed with food.
If your redfoot tortoise isn't feeding as well as usual and you need to get meds to it without the stress of tubing it try this: mix whatever it needs to get with something like tunafish or some really skanky canned cat food. The odor of these things will often get a non-feeding animal to at least pick at it.
I used to use this method on newly imported redfoots who were often shy or stressed out. Stinky (wet) cat food loaded with meds was much less hassle than trying to force a tube down their throat.
I know that Panacur is a wormer by my vet insists that is also is effective on flagellates. Also, the Merck Vet Manual states that Panacur seems to be effective against them too.
But whatever, check with your vet.
 

llamas55

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Do you have time to wait for a fecal tho? maybe a small dose of Flagyl that somebody experienced can come on and tell you how much? I know ivermectin is NOT good as it passes the brain/body barrier? sounds like time is of the essence (and a bit of extra warmth?) ....waiting for what the pros come in and say
 

-ryan-

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llamas55 said:
Do you have time to wait for a fecal tho? maybe a small dose of Flagyl that somebody experienced can come on and tell you how much? I know ivermectin is NOT good as it passes the brain/body barrier? sounds like time is of the essence (and a bit of extra warmth?) ....waiting for what the pros come in and say

It crosses the blood/brain barrier. I'm not 100% sure what that means, but I know that it most often results in death. Ivermectin really should be avoided with all reptiles though in my opinion. The (little) research that I have done indicates that there are safer methods for the many reptilian ailments that ivermectin is often (or was often) used for.

Good luck! I hope that this is not something too serious. I would say 100% to have the vet look him over and check out his blood as well as his feces.
 

matt41gb

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Thanks for the advice! I took him to the animal hospital that I work at and soaked him in warm water to try to get a sample. He never gave me one and it was so hard to get a hold of his tail to swab for a fecal. He's still strong in the sense that he can pull against me but his legs splay out when he isn't supported. I gave him 0.2 ml of Panacur (fenbendazole) by mouth with a syringe. Panacur is pretty forgiving if you don't have an exact dosage. I took some A/D canned cat food to see if he'll eat, its got a pretty strong odor. I'm going to remove him from the others so I can get a fecal. I sure hope he gets over this soon. Thanks for all your help guys.

-Matt
 
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Maggie Cummings

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matt41gb said:
Thanks guys. I have Flagyl at work, I know the dosage for dogs and cats but not tortoises. I'll see if I can get a fecal from him. There are several bad side effects when using Flagyl in tortoises including paralysis. I'll keep everyone updated. Thanks for everyone's concern.

-Matt

I recently had 5 small tortoises with parasites and my Vet instead of using the treatment orally (Panacur) she put the dosage in the cloaca. She said that's the way vets are doing that now because it doesn't cause any stomach upsets that way. She says it's new cutting edge treatment. (Obviously) She also gave the second treatment that way and the only reaction I saw in the torts was a clean report on the next fecal. I'm not a Vet but I'm just telling you what she did and I thought it was pretty awesome. So maybe if your torts problem is internal parasites you might try her way. None of them stopped eating and none showed any evidence of a bad reaction...
 

Redfoot NERD

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maggie3fan said:
matt41gb said:
Thanks guys. I have Flagyl at work, I know the dosage for dogs and cats but not tortoises. I'll see if I can get a fecal from him. There are several bad side effects when using Flagyl in tortoises including paralysis. I'll keep everyone updated. Thanks for everyone's concern.

-Matt

I recently had 5 small tortoises with parasites and my Vet instead of using the treatment orally (Panacur) she put the dosage in the cloaca. She said that's the way vets are doing that now because it doesn't cause any stomach upsets that way. She says it's new cutting edge treatment. (Obviously) She also gave the second treatment that way and the only reaction I saw in the torts was a clean report on the next fecal. I'm not a Vet but I'm just telling you what she did and I thought it was pretty awesome. So maybe if your torts problem is internal parasites you might try her way. None of them stopped eating and none showed any evidence of a bad reaction...

What was the "wait-time" until the second treatment Maggie? I wonder how that treatment got into the gut?

NERD
 

matt41gb

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We do treat some dogs rectally but never with de-wormer. It works just as well, it's just easier to do it by mouth in dogs and cats. Since he's somewhat weak I got it in his mouth after a few minutes. Since we're having a warm day today I took the group outside to graze on the weeds. He seems more alert and strong outside. He is walking around on his toes and eating some of the grass. He's just not as energetic as the rest of the bunch. Hopefully it was just parasites getting him down. I'll keep updating.

-Matt
 
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Maggie Cummings

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Redfoot NERD said:
maggie3fan said:
matt41gb said:
Thanks guys. I have Flagyl at work, I know the dosage for dogs and cats but not tortoises. I'll see if I can get a fecal from him. There are several bad side effects when using Flagyl in tortoises including paralysis. I'll keep everyone updated. Thanks for everyone's concern.

-Matt

I recently had 5 small tortoises with parasites and my Vet instead of using the treatment orally (Panacur) she put the dosage in the cloaca. She said that's the way vets are doing that now because it doesn't cause any stomach upsets that way. She says it's new cutting edge treatment. (Obviously) She also gave the second treatment that way and the only reaction I saw in the torts was a clean report on the next fecal. I'm not a Vet but I'm just telling you what she did and I thought it was pretty awesome. So maybe if your torts problem is internal parasites you might try her way. None of them stopped eating and none showed any evidence of a bad reaction...

What was the "wait-time" until the second treatment Maggie? I wonder how that treatment got into the gut?

NERD

14 days Terry and it worked so that's all I cared about. The tortoises got rid of the parasites and none stopped eating or got sick. Do you have a Vet's degree Terry? Is there something about this treatment you disagree with?
 

llamas55

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-ryan- said:
llamas55 said:
Do you have time to wait for a fecal tho? maybe a small dose of Flagyl that somebody experienced can come on and tell you how much? I know ivermectin is NOT good as it passes the brain/body barrier? sounds like time is of the essence (and a bit of extra warmth?) ....waiting for what the pros come in and say

It crosses the blood/brain barrier. I'm not 100% sure what that means, but I know that it most often results in death. Ivermectin really should be avoided with all reptiles though in my opinion. The (little) research that I have done indicates that there are safer methods for the many reptilian ailments that ivermectin is often (or was often) used for.

Good luck! I hope that this is not something too serious. I would say 100% to have the vet look him over and check out his blood as well as his feces.

I meant do NOT use ivermectin, as we agree, it gets into the brain bad.
wondering how one gets meds into a cloaca, Maggie, did you watch? how did the vet do it> like a little tiny needleless syringe, or?
 

Redfoot NERD

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maggie3fan said:
Redfoot NERD said:
maggie3fan said:
matt41gb said:
Thanks guys. I have Flagyl at work, I know the dosage for dogs and cats but not tortoises. I'll see if I can get a fecal from him. There are several bad side effects when using Flagyl in tortoises including paralysis. I'll keep everyone updated. Thanks for everyone's concern.

-Matt

I recently had 5 small tortoises with parasites and my Vet instead of using the treatment orally (Panacur) she put the dosage in the cloaca. She said that's the way vets are doing that now because it doesn't cause any stomach upsets that way. She says it's new cutting edge treatment. (Obviously) She also gave the second treatment that way and the only reaction I saw in the torts was a clean report on the next fecal. I'm not a Vet but I'm just telling you what she did and I thought it was pretty awesome. So maybe if your torts problem is internal parasites you might try her way. None of them stopped eating and none showed any evidence of a bad reaction...

What was the "wait-time" until the second treatment Maggie? I wonder how that treatment got into the gut?

NERD

14 days Terry and it worked so that's all I cared about. The tortoises got rid of the parasites and none stopped eating or got sick. Do you have a Vet's degree Terry? Is there something about this treatment you disagree with?

Pardon me?... were those bad Q?'s...

NERD
 
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Maggie Cummings

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llamas55 said:
-ryan- said:
llamas55 said:
Do you have time to wait for a fecal tho? maybe a small dose of Flagyl that somebody experienced can come on and tell you how much? I know ivermectin is NOT good as it passes the brain/body barrier? sounds like time is of the essence (and a bit of extra warmth?) ....waiting for what the pros come in and say

It crosses the blood/brain barrier. I'm not 100% sure what that means, but I know that it most often results in death. Ivermectin really should be avoided with all reptiles though in my opinion. The (little) research that I have done indicates that there are safer methods for the many reptilian ailments that ivermectin is often (or was often) used for.

Good luck! I hope that this is not something too serious. I would say 100% to have the vet look him over and check out his blood as well as his feces.

I meant do NOT use ivermectin, as we agree, it gets into the brain bad.
wondering how one gets meds into a cloaca, Maggie, did you watch? how did the vet do it> like a little tiny needleless syringe, or?

Yes a small syringe and it was very easy. Much easier then trying to force anything into a strong closed mouth.
 

-ryan-

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llamas55 said:
-ryan- said:
llamas55 said:
Do you have time to wait for a fecal tho? maybe a small dose of Flagyl that somebody experienced can come on and tell you how much? I know ivermectin is NOT good as it passes the brain/body barrier? sounds like time is of the essence (and a bit of extra warmth?) ....waiting for what the pros come in and say

It crosses the blood/brain barrier. I'm not 100% sure what that means, but I know that it most often results in death. Ivermectin really should be avoided with all reptiles though in my opinion. The (little) research that I have done indicates that there are safer methods for the many reptilian ailments that ivermectin is often (or was often) used for.

Good luck! I hope that this is not something too serious. I would say 100% to have the vet look him over and check out his blood as well as his feces.

I meant do NOT use ivermectin, as we agree, it gets into the brain bad.
wondering how one gets meds into a cloaca, Maggie, did you watch? how did the vet do it> like a little tiny needleless syringe, or?

Don't worry, I don't think there was any confusion there, I was just trying to elaborate on your thoughts :)
 
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