Sick Horsfield! New owner in need of help!

Tortellini2018

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Hi all, really hoping from some advice if possible! I am a brand new owner, having adopted my Horsfield only 3 days ago, but unfortunately he was not properly cared for and I am despartely trying to help him. I have been reading as many of the forum posts on here as possible to try and find the answers myself, but there is a lot of conflicting information out there, so hoping someone may be able to help me out a little. I am trying to book a vets appointment with a tortoise specialist so they can check him over, but in the meantime I would be so so grateful for anyones comments. I thought it would be good to give you some background on us and the current set up I have!.....

Background story
My Horsfield is called Tortellini and I have been told he/she (they are unable to tell me the sex but I call him he) is 4 years old. When we decided to adopt him 3 days ago it was because he was living with family that we were visiting that hadn't done much research after they had to adopt him from someone else who apparently hadnt taken too much care of him historically. His heat lamp had a faulty connection so often would only be on for 3 hours a day and temperature of his enclosure was around 18 degrees/65 Farenheit. He was in a tortoise table & the substrate/bedding being used was a mix of hemp and grass pellets and was piled up pretty high (I would say probably 6 inches of substrate in a 8 inch high table). He was permanantly in his shell burried deep below the substrate so it was completely covering him/you couldnt see him. He didn't ever move. He also wasnt eating any fresh food or dry pellet food left down for him, they actually hadnt seen him eat for weeks and believed he may have been eating his bedding as that was all they could think of.

His home & Substrate
We took Tortellini home (we live in the UK and it is going into our winter here, he lives indoors as we have no garden). I gave him a bath & as soon as he got into the water he stuck his tail out and went right back onto his rear legs, so I am taking this as a sign that he was likely massively dehydrated? I then cleared his table out and scrubbed it clean before drying it completely out and then adding new bedding as I believed the pellets in the previous bedding could be very dangerous (I since realised maybe I was getting confused with people who say pellet food is very dangerous) but I thought it should be changed anyway. The new bedding I added was from a pet shop, and was a mix of sterallised top soil, sand and limestone grit... plus i mixed this in with some left over hemp bedding we had (picture attached of this substrate mix currently in his table). I have since read comments regards sand, (and also hemp doesnt appear to be that popular?) so I am waiting for a delivery of Coco Coir/coco peat and orchid bark chips to replace it. If anyone thinks I am ok still using some of the pet shop substrate (sterallised top soil, sand and limestone grit) and any of the hemp bedding mixed in with the new stuff I am waiting for then please let me know, as I hate to waste anything! I have not piled the substrate up as high as before, its about 3 inches high at the moment with a bit more in his covered bed area as he likes to dig. I have read that Horsfields may need extra substrate to dig more so than other breeds, so please let me know if you think I should add more.
I have attached a picture of his tortoise table set up. Tortellini is very small and fits in the palm of my hand (his shell measures 14cm in length) so hopefully this is big enough as he seems to have a fairamount fo room to wander at the moment. I keep his table as close to a window as possible, not where it is in the attached picture. I have tried to create some mounds in his table to create different elevations and he has a water dish. I am waiting for a terrocata dish to arrive for his food, at the moment his food is just in the corner on top of some substrate until the delivery comes, but he hasn't gone anywhere near it (will come onto that in a moment!). I have a thermometer for his covered area/cool spot and keep this at 22/23 degrees (71/73 farenheit) all day and I test his basking spot and that comes out at 35 degrees/95 farenheit so I think I am ok with temperatures from what I have read? The light bulb I have is a 60w combination bulb of heat and UV. I keep the light on for 8 hours during the day and at night his table goes down to around 18 degrees/65 Farenheit.
I had read that Horsfields do not like any kind of damp or humdity, but have also read that owners like to dampen the substrate and add humid hide boxes, so I'm confused whether to do that or not, especially considering he may be poorly??

Food

Tortellini has not ate anything at all for the past 3 days I have had him, and we don't believe he has ate for a few weeks prior to that unless he was eating his bedding, so this is obviously really concerning. I have left him some rocket and some green leaves but have taken away the pellett food after doing some reasearch. I have also added some calcium powder, however as I said nothing has been touched by him. I am trying to find some dandelion leaves for him.

Underweight/dehydrated
His shell measures 14 cm long yet we weighed him last night and he was 225g, so very underweight I believe. I gave him another bath, keeping him in some warm water up to chin height for 20 mins and when we fully dryed him and weighed him again he had gone up to 230g. He was also alot more active and alert after this bath. I found a post which had suggested regular baths can be very stressful, but I think I should probably be giving him daily baths at the moment due to being so underweight? This is another reason why I think a humid hide box and dampening his substrate could be beneficial, but I haven't done that yet as I thought I needed to avoid any kind of damp in his enclosure. I read being underweight could be an issue with worms, previous owners have not had him wormed, do I go buy some now from the pet shop or shall I wait until my vet visit? Finally, could his lack of appetite be due to it being winter? He has never been hibernated before, I certainly have no plans to do it this year when he is like this!

Vet visit
I have found a vet specialist and I am just trying to get an appointment for a check up. There seems to be conflicting info about visiting the vets, as in sometimes if they are not a specilist they give the wrong advice or may try and administar a vit A injection which I should refuse? I also need to ask their advice on worming or maybe get them to worm tortellini. Any help here appreciated.

All in all Tortellini is way more alert and active, and hopefully way more happy in his new home over the last few days, but as I am new to all this some reassurance on what I have done so far and some help trying to get his weight up and get him eating would be massively appreciated. I also don't know if I am expecting a change in him too soon and if I need to give him a few more days to adapt to his new life. Just to confirm, the main questions I was hoping to get answered are the following:

- Can I use a substrate mix of sterallised top soil, sand and limestone grit? And can I use hemp bedding/substrate?
- What should the depth of substrate be for my 4 year old Horsfield who is 14cm long and lives in a tortoise table?
- Shall I add a humid hide box/dampen his substrate or leave it as dry as possible?
- Shall I go get some wormer now?
- Shall I give him daily baths?

If you have got this far, thank you for reading, and hopefully you can help Tortellini!
 

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Yvonne G

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- Can I use a substrate mix of sterallised top soil, sand and limestone grit? And can I use hemp bedding/substrate?
- What should the depth of substrate be for my 4 year old Horsfield who is 14cm long and lives in a tortoise table?
- Shall I add a humid hide box/dampen his substrate or leave it as dry as possible?
- Shall I go get some wormer now?
- Shall I give him daily baths?

Don't use that substrate. The white bits encourage them to eat substrate. Not a good idea, as it may cause impaction
I like 4 or 5" of substrate, and my substrate of choice is orchid bark
At 4 years, he doesn't need much humidity. Daily soakings should be enough
I would allow the vet to de-worm the tortoise, and give you the appropriate amount, then next time you can do it
Keep up the daily baths until he move to an outdoor enclosure
 

TechnoCheese

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Welcome to the forum! Please give these a read-
Russian Tortoise Care Sheet https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/Russian-Tortoise-Care-Sheet.80698/

Beginner Mistakes https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/Beginner-Mistakes.45180/
-that tortoise needs a minimum enclosure size of 8x4 feet. The current enclosure is too small.

-You don’t have to worry about humidity with Russians as long as you have a damp substrate, a humid hide, a large terra cotta saucer, and frequent soaks. So yes, dampen his substrate and give him a humid hide. Humidity won’t hurt him, but extreme dryness can.

-daily baths would be good for him, yes.

-substrate should be at least 4 inches(the deeper the better), and it should be coco coir, orchid bark, or cypress mulch. Coco coir and orchid bark are my personal favorites.
 

Tortellini2018

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Thank you so much! I’ve been a little OCD about keeping his home so dry so glad I asked! I will keep up the baths and make him a humid hide whilst also making sure his substrate gets sprayed with water. Unfortunately the tortoise table was given with Tortellini but I am trying to get someone to make a bigger enclosure!
Thanks again!
 

Minority2

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Thank you so much! I’ve been a little OCD about keeping his home so dry so glad I asked! I will keep up the baths and make him a humid hide whilst also making sure his substrate gets sprayed with water. Unfortunately the tortoise table was given with Tortellini but I am trying to get someone to make a bigger enclosure!
Thanks again!

1. Can you please verify what type of light bulb you are currently using? This bulb produces UV(B)?
A web link, model number, or brand name would be helpful. I didn't know they had traditional shaped mercury vapor bulbs at 60 watts.

Spraying is not enough. Water seeps directly down and stays on the bottom of the enclosure. You need to pour a jug of water and hand mix the substrate so that the untouched areas will also have a chance of absorbing the water.

You should still keep an indoor humidity level of at least 50-70% for adult Russians. My indoor adult Russian is kept at 70-80% and my outdoor Russian enclosures are regularly sprayed down and measured for verification. Make sure to always have a water dish available in your enclosure to allow your tortoise to self soak.

A mercury vapor bulb's intense heat, similar to halogen bulbs, can cause tortoises to feel and act lethargically. Some people have also suggested that high humidity and daily soaks is not enough to prevent pyramiding for young tortoises housed with mercury vapor bulbs. While this information mainly pertains to young tortoises, it could also suggest that regular advised hydration methods may not be enough for tortoises, hatchlings and adults that are housed with mercury vapor bulbs.
 

Tortellini2018

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1. Can you please verify what type of light bulb you are currently using? This bulb produces UV(B)?

Thank you for the advice. I’ve attached a pic of what the pet shop gave me as a combination bulb. In hindsight after reading other posts about how unreliable advice is from pet shops I should have double checked it before now I guess.... this is just UVA, so I’m guessing if it’s not emitting UVB it’s no good? I have no idea what bulb or what wattage to get, I’ve spent 3 days reading so many posts and blogs my brain is frazzled, so if anyone has any links to any favourites I could order from say Amazon that would be appreciated.

I am also looking at humidity gauges, do you leave it in the enclosure at all times or just put it in there now and then to test?
 

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Minority2

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I kind of suspected this. This bulb does not provide UV(B). The bulb you currently have pictured is just an overpriced heat bulb with a double reflector design to increase heat and light projecting to a particular spot. I don't recommend these because they also behave like spot bulbs, which aren't very useful in keeping ambient enclosure temperature levels warm.

UV(A) is not the same as UV(B). UV(B) is required for d3 synthesis in tortoises. You need a linear florescent UV(B) reptile rated bulb and fixture if you are not regularly taking your tortoise outside for natural sunlight.

I also feel that 8 hours of light/heat is not enough, especially if the owner doesn't plan to brumate/hibernate their tortoises. 12-14 hours per day is generally recommended for tortoises that are permanently housed indoors.
 

Tortellini2018

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I kind of suspected this. This bulb does not provide UV(B). The bulb you currently have pictured is just an overpriced heat bulb with a double reflector design to increase heat and light projecting to a particular spot. I don't recommend these because they also behave like spot bulbs, which aren't very useful in keeping ambient enclosure temperature levels warm.

UV(A) is not the same as UV(B). UV(B) is required for d3 synthesis in tortoises. You need a linear florescent UV(B) reptile rated bulb and fixture if you are not regularly taking your tortoise outside for natural sunlight.

I also feel that 8 hours of light/heat is not enough, especially if the owner doesn't plan to brumate/hibernate their tortoises. 12-14 hours per day is generally recommended for tortoises that are permanently housed indoors.


Thank you! I am looking online now for a linear florescent UV(B) reptile rated bulb and fixture. Would you have any idea what wattage I should be getting for an enclosure 4ft x 2ft (I’m going to order his new house ASAP)?

Really appreciate all the help! He has had a bath, we’ve soaked his substrate and then he finally ate some food this evening for the first time... we are so happy!!!
 

Minority2

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Thank you! I am looking online now for a linear florescent UV(B) reptile rated bulb and fixture. Would you have any idea what wattage I should be getting for an enclosure 4ft x 2ft (I’m going to order his new house ASAP)?

Really appreciate all the help! He has had a bath, we’ve soaked his substrate and then he finally ate some food this evening for the first time... we are so happy!!!

Are you upgrading to a 4' x 2' ft enclosure or are you planning on building/purchasing a 8' x 4' ft enclosure, which is what an adult 4 year old Russian/Horsefield should be housed in?

Either way a 3 ft linear florescent fixture and UV(B) reptile rated bulb will be fine. Purchase an additional 3 ft fixture and bulb if this is in fact, for an 8' x 4' ft enclosure. Some people may choose to use a single 4 ft linear florescent fixture in an 8' x 4' ft enclosure but that's quite stretching it if they're not using a strong UV(B) reptile rated bulb.
 

Pastel Tortie

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Hello and welcome to the Forum! I'm in North Florida, but I lived in the UK for about three years, a good while back.

I'm tagging @JoesMum because she lives in the UK and would be a great resource for you. If you don't hear from her in a day or so, send her a PM, as she sometimes does not receive the thread notifications. JoesMum has a wealth of knowledge and experience and can also assist you with suggestions and information specific to the UK.
 

Tortellini2018

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Hello and welcome to the Forum! I'm in North Florida, but I lived in the UK for about three years, a good while back.

I'm tagging @JoesMum because she lives in the UK and would be a great resource for you. If you don't hear from her in a day or so, send her a PM, as she sometimes does not receive the thread notifications. JoesMum has a wealth of knowledge and experience and can also assist you with suggestions and information specific to the UK.

Thanks for the suggestion! @JoesMum hopefully I can pick your brains about some good food to pick up over here whilst we are lacking weeds!
 

Pastel Tortie

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Thanks for the suggestion! @JoesMum hopefully I can pick your brains about some good food to pick up over here whilst we are lacking weeds!
@JoesMum has been traveling, but she's recently back in the UK. Sometimes she doesn't receive the notifications when she's been tagged, so if you don't hear from her in a day or so, send her a PM so she knows to come to this thread. :)
 

JoesMum

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Hello! I'm here! I live in Kent :)

That enclosure is way too small for your tort. A tort that size needs 4'x8' (2.2 x1.5 metres) of floor area. Russians are very active torts and needs loads of space despite their small size. Unfortunately they're not the house pets that just eat lettuce that some people, including this tort's previous owners, think.

You have had good advice from Minority2; please do read those two threads that were linked.

Your priorities are a much bigger enclosure, UVB, sorting out the substrate and knowing the temperatures in the enclosure, especially directly under the basking lamp where it must be 35-37C

A temperature gun type thermometer like this is best for spot temperatures
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thermometer-Zanmax-Non-Contact-Temperature-Indication/dp/B07CJ1SJYX/

Coco coir can be bought in bricks like this and softened with water. It should be evenly damp right to the bottom and into the corners - you will need to haul all the decor out and tip water in from a jug and then mix it with your hands periodically to keep it damp.

An old bookshelf with the shelves knocked out and lined with heavy duty plastic or pondliner makes a great tortoise table.
 

Tortellini2018

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Hi @JoesMum thanks for the message! I haven’t been on here in a while to pick up your message, but luckily I had already done everything you suggested, including using an old bookcase as a new tortoise table (such a cheaper alternative!).

One question though if you don’t mind me asking another, for food at the moment whilst there are no weeds to munch on, we’ve been recommended florette crispy salad.... have you ever used that?

Thanks
 

JoesMum

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Hi @JoesMum thanks for the message! I haven’t been on here in a while to pick up your message, but luckily I had already done everything you suggested, including using an old bookcase as a new tortoise table (such a cheaper alternative!).

One question though if you don’t mind me asking another, for food at the moment whilst there are no weeds to munch on, we’ve been recommended florette crispy salad.... have you ever used that?

Thanks
Look at the contents of the pack. If it contains red cabbage then avoid feeding that, but the rest is probably fine. The Lamb's Lettuce is fine.

Few of us manage without store bought greens in the winter months. The trick is to look them up on The Tortoise Table Plant Database (a brilliant online search facility) for suitability to feed.
https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

And don't feel guilty about using a pelleted feed, softened in water, to supplement in winter either. I used Komodo. Mazuri is now available from the Shelled Warriors Shop https://www.shelledwarriorsshop.co.uk
 

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