Sick (Egyptian) T. kleinmanni

[DrGrillz]

Greetings all,

One of my 3 Egyptians has been sick over the past few days. The male adult, approx 19 years of age, has been lethargic, with sunken eyes (can't seem to open them for too long) and weight loss. He's also had a long history of clear/light drainage from his nostrils but lately has not been showing signs. However, his nares have been clogged for the past week or so and had difficulties trying to clear them out. The signs are pointing towards dehydration.

I've taken him to a local vet. Vet stated she believes his condition is related to his husbandry/care. I've had my male since 1997, and during those years, he's only been sick 2 or 3 times. He's always had a good appetite and was most active in the morning hours.

Vet gave me a grim prognosis, stating 50-50 in terms of him pulling through. She recommended feeding him Ensure to provide him with nutrients.

I had some leftover baby food that was all-vegetarian (green peas and kale) and using a small syringe, I force-fed him. Working with a tortoise his size is challenging as I have to be careful not to harm him and not to over-feed him. I was able to put some food in his mouth, hopefully this will provide him with some nutrients as he has not been eating much if at all over the last couple of days.

I've soaked him in warm water (Vet has also done so and was successful in clearing out his nares). I plan on doing daily soakings to get him rehydrated again. I heard from other tortoise keepers in the past that clear gatorade is good. I will look into that to see if the electrolytes can help.

After the Vet visit, I went to a local pet shop to buy new UVA/UVB lights to ensure that everything is up in working order. I feed my tortoise Spring mix salad, but have now added calcium to their diet. Vet recommended to use bananas to entice him to eat, I've not heard of bananas being used as part of their diet, so I would like to hear input from other tortoise keepers on this this.

At home, I placed my male back in his pen. He initially laid where I left him, with his head partially out and legs exposed. Eyes still closed and just out of energy. After approx half hour, he actually started to move and walked up to the food dish where he attempted to eat. He was able to take a few bites before he became tired and slept by the dish. Poor guy, its as if he's trying but cannot

Right now I am trying everything that I can to get him to be lively again. Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated. Its a very tough time for both my tortoise and I

 

[Yvonne G]

When a tortoise is so dehydrated that his eyes are sunken, soaking just won't do the trick. He needs you to inject him with fluids. I'm surprised your vet didn't do this or tell you to do it.

If you can get the mouth open and insert foods like you did with the baby food, then buy some Critical Care, mfg'd by Oxbow. It's a finly ground up powder of all kinds of good greens that tortoises eat. Mix it with enough water to be able to squirt through a syringe. If you can't get it in pet stores, vets usually sell it.

I would set up a smaller hospital tank and get the temperature overall about 85F degrees and keep the tortoise quiet. Soak him every day. Unflavored Pedialite won't hurt.

 

[kimber_lee_314]

I agree - he needs fluids and antibiotics asap. Where are you located? Can you try another vet?

 

[DrGrillz]

Thank you both for your replies... I have acted on your suggestions. As to where I am located, I'm in Louisville, KY.

1) I went ahead and ordered online the critical care food. However, I don't anticipate it coming until Wednesday I don't know where I can buy this locally to get it sooner.

2) I called my Vet and explained to her that little to no changes have occurred since yesterday and was recommended antibiotics. I did not get to talk to her directly as she was busy, but spoke over the phone with a Vet technician. She administered Ceftazidime subcutaneously in his hind left leg. Apparently this will have to be redone again in 3 days, so Monday he'll go in for part 2. They would not, for some reason, give me any of these injections so I can administer myself.

Regarding re-hydrating him, the Vet recommended simply soaking him. I think she is afraid of administering IV to a small tortoise as him. I would also imagine its difficult due to his size. So I decided to soak him in clear Gatorade. I was able to see him sip a little bit of it, but his eyes are still closed and is lethargic. Earlier in the day as I was driving to the Vet clinic, I was able to observe that he moved a little in is small pen I was transporting him in. He opened both eyes briefly, too. Looking at his eyes/facial expressions, I can tell he's not himself.

Vet recommended feeding him some Ensure (I thought that this was odd, but she's a Vet so I have to trust her suggestions). I plan on shortly feeding him a little via a monojet syringe. Hopefully that will provide him with some nutrients he may really need now.

If there are any other suggestions or input, it would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks!

 

[parrotlady]

Injection in rear leg?, I thought that it was old school. All injections given to my animals in the front. I would question injection location.

 

[tortadise]

Injection in rear leg?, I thought that it was old school. All injections given to my animals in the front. I would question injection location.

Ceftadizadine is a sub-Q front or rear leg works.(it also spoils very rapidly and come in very small dose viles which is more than likely why your vet did not give you take home doses. its also very temperature sensitive ounce the powder and liquid is mixed to give injection) Even the neck will work. Kleinmanni have very large scales on the front legs making it more difficult to give a sub-q injection.

I have to say, that almost every keeper of Egyptians mis-understand and appropriate their husbandry properly(not all of them of course, But many). Its very easy to assume the dry hot conditions of Egypt. but in realty they are subject to a very unique climate. Egyptians will rarely drink from a sitting pool or water dish. I see it with my adults and babies every once in a while. What I do see a lot of (every morning) is they drink and drink from the moisture and water droplets from the rocks(substrate used is decomposed granite mixed with sand, and soil {decomposed granite 75%, sand 5% and soil(top soil) 20%}) I spray adults and offspring to yearlings every morning and afternoon. Naturally where these are found gets lots of low pressure coastal fogs every dawn and dusk covering the landscape and flora with moisture and droplets of water. These tortoises will actually become active hours before sun rise and drink from the landscape and plants covered with moisture, as well as forage on the plants too. They become very inactive late morning to dusk. So hydration is very very important to this species. soaking typically will not suffice for this species. But spraying the enclosure will, Elevate the humidity to 80+% in the morning and then again in the mid day. But make sure it dries out within an hour-two.

Given the state your specimen is in. I would recommend soaking to ensure it is hydrated. Its very easy to dehydrate this species. The ambient humidity also can play a very large role in declining this species too. Too hot and too dry can do severe damage to a chelonian, even worse than wet cold conditions. try and maintain a constant 20-40% humidity on average with spikes of 70-80% for 20% of the day(light cycle of the terrarium)

Here is a video I documented of a morning spray down to simulate the early low temperature dew covered landscape as they would be conditioned to in the wild to hydrate themselves. Every morning and afternoon I do this for the adults and young. Very rarely I see them drink from the water dish offered. Its truly how this species drinks. This method of husbandry is critical for arid specimens. South African species do the exact same protocol. Sadly this is why tent tortoises and most wild caught Egyptians died off during late 80-early 90's import. Exact proper husbandry is very easily improperly executed with arid species.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wanE4Mql9eI

 

[Yvonne G]

...and I wanted to add that the fluids don't have to be administered I.V. they can be sub-Q


Thanks Kelly! That is some great info.

 

[DrGrillz]

Thank you Kelly for the long and detailed reply. Interesting about the whole water topic, as I had no luck ever with having them drink water from a water bowl. I read on other websites that they receive most of their water from their diet. But now that I have this problem, I would say that they don't get as much or adequate water to stay hydrated.

I would love to make a proper enclosure for them. The video you posted is very nice. Would you mind telling me how I can replicate such a thing? I have no idea how to set up my enclosure to control humidity. What is needed? I'm ready for an "open checkbook" to get this done right. I don't want to lose him, and worse, I don't want my other two remaining ones go through what my oldest male is going through.

Two years ago, I changed the husbandry. I had built a large pen where I used disinfected play sand to mimic an arid/desert-like landscape. It looked very nice and the animals seemed to be happy with it and were very active. However, the play sand that I had ended up being eaten by them and caused impaction and all sorts of problems. A friend of mine, a reptile breeder took them under his care for several months and was nursing them back to health. It took a while before they were able to pass the last bit of sand from their system. Because of that experience, I ended up with simply using paper towels as a substrate.

I may have not done a perfect job in raising them, but each of them have perfectly smooth shells with no pyramiding and were cared for as best as I could. I'm prepared to do the job right, so any guidance on setting up a proper enclosure would help. A list of items and how to make it happen would work. Unfortunately, where I live currently, they would have to be kept indoors.

 

[DrGrillz]

Yvonne, how would I provide fluids sub-q? A few sticks into a forearm with clean sterile saline?

 

[parrotlady]

Thank you for the clarification. Great info!

 

[tortadise]

Indoors is just fine. They are very small. Your can get decomposed granite at home depot or lowes or nursery stores. Just put it in a 5 gallon bucket and run a hose in the bucket with the substrate for 15-20 minutes(kinda like flushing or rinsing aquarium gravel) you can mix top soil with it ounce its rinsed. And basically put 8"-10" thick in the enclosure(especially since they are adults and may lay eggs) If you wish to not put that much in the entire enclosure that thickness you can put it that thick in one side of the enclosure for nesting(if you have females. If not than 3-4" is ok) Keep a UVB bulb on for 12-13 hours(they are very close to equator so their solstice does not change much). I let the temps drop from night to morning to low 70s and then high 90s-low100s in one side if the enclosure during the day. Ounce the lights and heat has been on for an hour or so I spray it down with warm(90-100 degree water) and spray the entire enclosure for 5 minutes or so. Typically they are awake and active looking for food well before I turn the lights on. This is where the relation to their wild activity can be recorded in captivity( the lets get food and water before its scorching temps) They dont burrow but will scuff some substrate with some ease(not much) to aestivate. That is why egyptians back legs are so limber, as well their plastron hinges and has give to it. When they escape the heat of the day they wont burrow, but more or less ram their head in under a plant(which naturally where they are found the plants are very sparse and not dense bush like at all) so they have to spray their hind legs and hinge their plastron open to allow their hind legs to splay sideways to escape the heat.

Anyways. A lot of blabbing. Its pretty easy keeping them. If you dont want to use granite or rocks, you can easily use mulch. But the granite dries out much faster during a few hours into the sun(bulbs being on) replicating it pretty naturally. So its not a matter of keeping it humid constantly. No climate stays constant anyways. but the fluctuation is what you need to keep. Not wet, but moist and humid early and mid day, then let it dry and heat up a lot the remaining 60-70% of the day.

 

[Yvonne G]

This is an interesting and informative paper on sub Q fluids:

http://www.ncwildliferehab.org/conf2013/Handouts/WRNC SQ Fluid Lab 2013 - Benson.pdf

 

[kimber_lee_314]

Yvonne, how would I provide fluids sub-q? A few sticks into a forearm with clean sterile saline?

I like to avoid the saline for subq (saline can dehydrate more.) I prefer Normasol. You can give him 1% of his body weight in the skin between his neck and arm. When giving antibiotics, I usually add the Normasol dose to keep it down to one injection. The antibiotic you were given is an excellent choice. I hope it works quickly for your little one. (As for soaking, you might try Pedialite instead of Gatorade.) Please keep us updated.

 

[DrGrillz]

Thank you for the info, much appreciated.

I

As for a current update, I think things are going in the right direction. Although I have to be careful with saying that. Upon handling him, he seems to be opening his eyes a bit more now. Both sides open, however his eyes are still sunken in. They do however look better than 2 days ago, but still not 100%. He's been basking underneath a newly bought Solar Glo light bulb which is a UVA/UVB bulb. After a while, he crawls further away not to be directly under the light.. I believe he's dictating how warm he wants to be. I was going to say that he is not interested in greens, however, as I am typing this message, I am happy to say that I see him munching on greens that I've dusted with Fluker's brand calcium. This is the first time in a few days that I've seen him eat or try to eat on his own. Last night and early this morning, I've force-fed him a little bit of the Ensure nutritional drink. Only a little amount at a time.

He still struggles with the clear "snot" coming out of his nares. I've attempted to treat it multiple times over 10+ years without success. As he's munching, I can see every once in a while a clear bubble. I've sort of lost hope on this, but if any of you long-term tortoise experts have a detailed way of curing this, please let me know.

I'm posting a link to a video I made a few years back in the old enclosure I made. This is the enclosure that led to them being impacted with sand in the their GI system. So before any judgement is made, please understand that they are not kept currently in the same set up as shown. The male in question that is sick is the one seen at the 43 second mark (the one that is by himself). You can see that he's a happy tortoise, with energy and walking around in his pen. However, the last few days have been just the opposite. Fingers crossed he'll continue to do better!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPOX-aEVVp8

 

[kimber_lee_314]

A couple of my tortoises have chronic runny noses that nothing has ever cured. They are healthy otherwise, so the vet believes they may have had some damage to the nasal passages. I have been able to treat some chronic runny noses with Gentacin eye drops in the nares. I believe there is a Baytril optic solution that can be used as well. (I've also been able to use this with rabbits with chronic URI's as well.) It doesn't always work, but it's worth a try. Glad to hear he is improving!

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I use fine grade orchid bark for all my species of tortoises. Every other day or so I pour water on it and stir it around thus creating humidity. I don't make it wet just damp and that works really good for my tortoises.

I have found that Solar Glo bulbs have a tendency to shut off and not work correctly after a month or so of use. Powersun is a bit more expensive but lasts forever. They all seems to lose their UVB after about 6 months, but the lights are still useful elsewhere.

 

[DrGrillz]

New update:

I think we're progressing, but not at 100%. Unfortunately, I have not seen him try to eat on his own. He sleeps pretty much most of the time, with just a little movement (walking around in enclosure). His eyes are not as sunken in as they were earlier, also, his rear legs appear to be more "plump" than they were a week ago.

I received the Oxboar critical care food by mail the other day. I mixed it with Ensure and force-fed it. A total of approx. 1ml per day, twice at 0.5ml. Yesterday and this morning, I stopped Ensure and simply mixed the food with water with the same amount.

His eyes do open once I wake him up.
Monday, he received his 2nd shot of antibiotics. The vet recommended a series of 3, so tomorrow will be his last shot. He still has a runny nose, which when dries clogs his nares. I have to use a moist towel to wipe them and clear it out.

Things that I've done so far, I've been feeding him nutritional food by force, soaking him often and using a luke-warm water spray bottle, spraying him down as he basks under a UVA/UVB bulb.

What I'm waiting for is to see him show interest in eating his greens on his own and showing more energy by walking around his pen.

 

[DrGrillz]

Continuing my update:

My tortoise received his 3rd round of antibiotics. While to the Vet's office, he finally urinated which was a sign of relief to me because I have not seen him have any BM or urination since his sickness. With him at the Vet's office, the vet technician stated he had a loose BM that was watery with some sign of blood. She described it not as red, but a tint that may be blood. I had them do a culture on it to see what it may be and I will get some sort of answer hopefully tomorrow. The 3rd round of antibiotics took place on Thursday.

He has still not shown signs of wanting to eat on his own, which is bothersome. I still feed him via a syringe into the mouth of a mixture of water and Oxbow Critical Care mix. I give him approx 1ml worth daily.

Today, however, I noticed his eyes seem to be partially open. Both sides the same, however his left side being more closed. He has an odd behavior as well, his limbs are relaxed off to his sides with his head resting forwards. Every so often he would quickly raise his head in an up and down movements. While doing so, its as though he wants to move but does not. Its more of him simply pushing himself up and then down again. He then rests his head forward and with his eyes partially open and just sits there. This behavior lasts just a few seconds and occurs about once a minute. I've not see this behavior before and don't know what to think of it. He looks "exhausted" and am at a loss at what else I can do for him. Suggestions would be appreciated if any.

While at my local pet store, I saw a bottle of Repti Turtle Eye drops by ZooMed. I bought it and applied a drop to each eye when he had those closed eyes. Shortly afterwards, he opened his eyes. Hopefully this would help him if there's anything going on with them.

This is now going on nearly 10 days, which is the longest he's ever been sick in the 17 years I've had him. If there's a suggestion as to what a Vet should be doing or anyone know of someone that is recommended in the Louisville area (perhaps even in the region, I would attempt to drive wherever) I would appreciate it.

 

[katrvt]

The head movement you are seeing is probably respiratory effort. If it's new, that concerns me a bit...

---

Also, the ceftaz should be given in the front half of the body. The reasoning is the renal portal system and the efficiency of filtering out the antibiotic too soon. I have heard of some vets using hind injections, but all the continuing ed lectures I have attended in the last several years and which were given by the likes of divers, mader and jorgenson (top herp vets in the us) are still saying use the front. This includes the most recent, which was given by Dr divers in August. Also hoping they plan to use the ceftaz in your kiddo for at least 2-3 weeks minimum.

 

[DrGrillz]

The vet wanted to only give 3 shots (last visit was the 3rd). She wanted to see the results of the fecal culture to see what to do next. In all honesty, I was not at all happy that the vet herself did not want to see me to discuss options, only have the technician talk to me about basic information. I felt as though I had to dictate to her what she should do or what I wanted her to do rather than have her make the decisions best for my tortoise. However, finding a good reptile vet is not easy and I'm relying on the collective knowledge of this forum for guidance.

Sounds as though I should talk to her regarding the site of administration of the antibiotic?

Regarding the respiratory effort, he's also combating a stuffy nose during this whole ordeal. Although his nares are not clogged at the moment, I do believe he has congestion which may make it more difficult for him to breathe. A little while ago, it seemed that he was trying to induce vomiting, but nothing came out. He did a series of 3 movements as though he wanted to vomit but since then stopped. Poor guy has me stressed and worried as much as he is sick :-(