Should sulcata breeding be regulated?

Erik Elvis

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I’m just wondering what happens to the large number of sulcata being sold. I’m sure most people don’t know what they are getting into and wonder how many and given away or god forbid let loose. I’m sure a lot of them die in captivity long before adulthood.
 

Erik Elvis

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I agree with the more government concept. But stepping back and not looking at it from a breeders perspective I do see it an issue
 

iAmCentrochelys sulcata

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Breeding is not an issue. I could not disagree with your suggestion more strongly.

There is not a huge surplus of unwanted sulcatas. If they are given away, so what? Early mortality is a problem but the solution is to educate people.
One of the Many issues as well is People not caring For their Animals (including tortoises) the Right way.
 

Tom

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Yeah well that’s kind of the mentality I have. Tons of these torts prob have poor lives and they’re so readily available I’m sure it’s the case with many of them.
You don't trample the rights of everyone because of a few bad apples. We already have laws and regulations to deal with the bad apples.

Rather than having an inept and corrupt government tell us what we can and can't do, as if we are helpless stupid children, the solution is education, and prosecution under existing law for cases of animal abuse.
 

Maro2Bear

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I’m just wondering what happens to the large number of sulcata being sold. I’m sure most people don’t know what they are getting into and wonder how many and given away or god forbid let loose. I’m sure a lot of them die in captivity long before adulthood.

I’m sure lots of things sold die in captivity - plants, animals, reptiles, birds. I hate walking through the “garden center” of Lowes, Home Depot, Walmart during our long hot summers. Plants wilting to death. Bone dry. Pots over turned, no water. Lillies, orchids, fig trees, you name it. Dry as a bone - dead. Let alone all the tropical fish & puppies & cats. So, it’s not just tortoise breeders/consumers. I guess we as concerned owners do the best we can to take care of what we have, educate our family & circle of friends.
 

EllyMae

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When I was first trying to find a sulcata, I thought it was going to be easy, like going to the pound to get a mutt; they have so many of them, that they're happy for any to get adopted into suitable homes. Then I kept looking, and kept looking. I do not think there are as many unwanted as certain BuzzfeedNews articles would have us believe.
I agree with Tom that governmental regulation is not what would be most useful here. I believe that this should be a self regulating process. People should only buy from repuatable breeders. If an animal is being mistreated, there are already laws to protect them.
My opinion would be different if released sulcatas were hurting native wildlife.
 

ArmadilloPup

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I like the critical thinking of this post, but it's a huge gray area. At a city ordinance level, I agree. I'd be down for leash laws for cats, and snitching on people who don't give their female animals a break.

At a national level, my country can't even get agricultural regulations right. Just recently, they allowed induced heat stroke (over the course of hours) as a "humane" solution to euthanize pigs. Highly intelligent animals, baking alive, because it's cheap.

And the pet industry isn't ran by animal lovers, either. Just like factory farms, much of the problem comes from those who have industrialized animal husbandry. Real farmers and local breeders struggle to compete. A lot of backyard breeders who aren't educated are modeling their ways off of the industry and what they see in pet stores, and not proper animal care.
 

Tom

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And the pet industry isn't ran by animal lovers, either. Just like factory farms, much of the problem comes from those who have industrialized animal husbandry. Real farmers and local breeders struggle to compete. A lot of backyard breeders who aren't educated are modeling their ways off of the industry and what they see in pet stores, and not proper animal care.
I don't share your observations or opinions quoted above. I've seen the opposite. I worked retail pets for 8 years and wholesale for one year. For the last 25 years, both my career and hobbies have me involved with all aspects of the pet industry.

Almost all people involved in the pet industry are people who just like animals and pets. Even the people working in the big corporate run stores are, at heart, people who just love pets. What I see is mass ignorance. People don't know how to care for these animals correctly and the primary avenues for learning what is correct for a given species are all parroting the same wrong info. Education and leading by example and demonstration is the solution. Actively trying to help and teach people, like what we do here on this forum is the solution. Dispelling old myths and explaining why they are wrong day after day is how we solve this problem. The more people that get involved and do this, the sooner we will see improvement.

@wellington is/was involved with the pet industry. Barb, would you agree with my assessment of the pet store situation?
 

wellington

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I don't share your observations or opinions quoted above. I've seen the opposite. I worked retail pets for 8 years and wholesale for one year. For the last 25 years, both my career and hobbies have me involved with all aspects of the pet industry.

Almost all people involved in the pet industry are people who just like animals and pets. Even the people working in the big corporate run stores are, at heart, people who just love pets. What I see is mass ignorance. People don't know how to care for these animals correctly and the primary avenues for learning what is correct for a given species are all parroting the same wrong info. Education and leading by example and demonstration is the solution. Actively trying to help and teach people, like what we do here on this forum is the solution. Dispelling old myths and explaining why they are wrong day after day is how we solve this problem. The more people that get involved and do this, the sooner we will see improvement.

@wellington is/was involved with the pet industry. Barb, would you agree with my assessment of the pet store situation?
I agree that most pet store owners/employees do love/like and care about animals. Of course there are those that for some reason think there is a lot of money to be made off them. This is true if you don't give proper care. That's where puppy mills come in. They make good money because they don't care and don't give proper care of any kind.
For the most part I think the big pet store chains are your ones that don't care but most of their employees do.
 
L

LasTortugasNinja

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I don't see an abundance of sulcatas. I see people getting them in this forum, but I go to 7 different pet stores, I look at classifieds daily, and I almost never see sulcatas. I see russians and greeks far more.

I'm NEVER for regulation of animals breeding. If anything, I find it makes things worse. I used to breed leopard geckos. Not coz I wanted to make money, I was a teen just interested in the species. I GAVE the hatchlings to various school teachers for classroom pets to help people get over the stigma of slimy, creepy lizards. Made no money on them.

Now everyone is breeding designer leopard geckos. Same with pythons, and all sorts of animals. People are able to get the colors they want. You can still get "cheap" reptiles for $20 or less as well as the $4000 super morphs.

But look at dogs. Dogs are now HEAVILY regulated. In many towns, if your dog has puppies, you are charged extra taxes as a kennel. Dog licenses are huge for unneutered pets. Adrian's Petstore is closed down, the only game in town is the big national chains. When I was a kid, you could get a lab or german shepherd puppy for $20 at any park or grocery store. Now everyone is breeding "designer dogs" with cute names and demented crossings: "Schnaubradors" or "Puggle Shepherds" or worse... and charging $500 to $3K for these abominations... all because there are so many regulations and PETA's goosestepping that made every hobby breeder a "puppy mill" (yes, there were legit bad breeders, but I knew plenty of hobbyists who were harassed to closure from good intentioned idiots).

I'm all for the hobbyist breeder. Hopefully they are learning and perfecting their craft, as well as educating their friends and neighbors... even the ones who'd never buy the animal. The more we demystify the animals, the more we get captive born lines as a mainstream source of animals, the less strain we put on wild populations.

Yeah, some of the animals get purchased by stupid but well-meaning parents for kids without the skills and willingness to put effort into caring for the pet, but that happens with dogs, cats, gerbils, and torts. Hopefully more and more get adopted by people who legitimately want to care for their future 80-200 year old family heirlooms. Yeah, it sucks that some live in horrid conditions, but it's not the government's job to tell people how to care for their animals, or how many they should have, etc. It's the job of other animal hobbyists, such as those found here, to freely share our knowledge and our trials and successes so that proper husbandry options are easily found. It's the hobbyists who are the ones changing how pets are cared for. My grandmother would NEVER allow a dog in the house and NEVER in a car. Today, my dogs are in my house with the family and if we want to go to a destination that says the dogs aren't welcomed, we don't go. It's been a slow change in how people see pets.

In the 90's, when I first started caring for various reptiles, there weren't two books you could find with the same info on how to care for a reptile. Everyone was full of zoologists that had their own "surefire" way of taking care of exotics. All written by people who cared for animals at a zoo or "observed" them in the wild. Every single one of those books are now FULL of wrong information. In 20 years, the FAQs here might be looked at the same way (no offense @Tom, I think they are great!). Tom2.0 will be telling people to download the latest care guides directly to their brains.

I think I rambled on too much... and I'm stopping now... I think it went incoherent. Apologies. I'm tired.
 

BlakeElDorado

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I think there is a myth out there that people don't know how big they will get and give them up constantly, thus leading to overflowing shelters.

I wrote a comment that I was debating rehoming one of my two males due to their hormones and got nearly 60+ phone calls and 50 messages in less than 12 hours. What i've seen, at least locally, is the shelters here charge upwards of $300 to rehome, require an in person inspection and have crazy terms on the contract you sign...thus leading people to do private adoptions and leaving rescues full, with a false sense that their animals are not adoptible/wanted.
 

Obbie

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I got my Mali ?? as a rescue. Someone in North Dakota must have set loose in an oil fields. It’s very sad. She’s well taken care of, and loved ?
 

Tom

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I think there is a myth out there that people don't know how big they will get and give them up constantly, thus leading to overflowing shelters.

I wrote a comment that I was debating rehoming one of my two males due to their hormones and got nearly 60+ phone calls and 50 messages in less than 12 hours. What i've seen, at least locally, is the shelters here charge upwards of $300 to rehome, require an in person inspection and have crazy terms on the contract you sign...thus leading people to do private adoptions and leaving rescues full, with a false sense that their animals are not adoptible/wanted.
I agree with you.
 

William Lee Kohler

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Definitely agree there are a lot of them in rescues. Too much breeding just because they can by thoughtless people. Just look on Kingsnake and Faunaclassifieds. Always baby Sulcatas and Leopards for sale including some big ones,, I know of at least 2 private rescues with several Sulcatas and Leopards here in the northwest, likely there's others. But I definitely do NOT agree with getting government involved at all! The folks keeping them should just get a conscience and not plan on many or most of them dying! The lives of all of these innocent ones should be precious to us all.
 

Tom

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Definitely agree there are a lot of them in rescues. Too much breeding just because they can by thoughtless people. Just look on Kingsnake and Faunaclassifieds. Always baby Sulcatas and Leopards for sale including some big ones,, I know of at least 2 private rescues with several Sulcatas and Leopards here in the northwest, likely there's others. But I definitely do NOT agree with getting government involved at all! The folks keeping them should just get a conscience and not plan on many or most of them dying! The lives of all of these innocent ones should be precious to us all.
Did you read Blake's comment (Post #15 in this thread) about why there are so many in rescues?
 

turtlesteve

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I think there is a myth out there that people don't know how big they will get and give them up constantly, thus leading to overflowing shelters.

I wrote a comment that I was debating rehoming one of my two males due to their hormones and got nearly 60+ phone calls and 50 messages in less than 12 hours. What i've seen, at least locally, is the shelters here charge upwards of $300 to rehome, require an in person inspection and have crazy terms on the contract you sign...thus leading people to do private adoptions and leaving rescues full, with a false sense that their animals are not adoptible/wanted.

This comment on shelters is dead on accurate, happening everywhere that dog breeding is regulated best I can tell. We went to a shelter in PA once on a friend’s recommendation. They wanted a huge fee, home visit, follow up visits, and a contract saying they could repo the dog at any time if they found something they didn’t like. I told them they were insane, then told my friends more or less the same. No surprise, they had plenty of dogs available that they “couldn’t” find homes for.

There is a hidden agenda with these rescues / shelters. They are both trying to commercialize the rescue business under the guise of being a non profit, and force their own (often politically influenced) mindset on others by means of these policies.

Here there are regular want ads for adult sulcatas, we are nowhere close to having a surplus. I think southern CA might have a slight excess and the only thing stopping it from being equalized is the fact that it’s not practical to ship adults elsewhere.
 
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