Sexing STARS and GROWTH rate...

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Redfoot NERD

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I acquired a young PAIR of Indian STAR tortoises in March '08.. notice how they were almost exactly the same size. [ note the date in ALL of these pics ]

1TSAPair.jpg


He was just shy 4" SCL.. about 3 7/8"

1Maleelegans.jpg


She was a little over 4" SCL.. about 4 1/8"

1Femaleelegans.jpg


- A YEAR AND A MONTH LATER -

He has grown a whole 1/8" SCL.. now 4"

1023MC.jpg


See the ANAL scute spread..

1023MP.jpg


She has grown at least 1/2" SCL.. now 4 5/8"

1023FC.jpg


See the extreme inverted "U" shape of her anal scutes..

1023FP.jpg


The guess is that these hatched in '04.. and it was obvious that they were a pair @ 4" SCL. Whether it is possible to sex them at a smaller size is questionable.

***********

I have noticed that the carapace "pattern" on a female seems to have 'fewer' radiating lines..

SmallmalePAIR.jpg


And OLD adults can be extreme in the size differences of males and females.. { this will really mess-up the 'scute' theory }..

STARPairSIZES.jpg


For more of the story read the article in the "Species Profile" here..

http://www.turtletary.com/stars.html

Terry K
 

Redfoot NERD

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Redfoot NERD said:
I acquired a young PAIR of Indian STAR tortoises in March '08.. notice how they were almost exactly the same size. [ note the date in ALL of these pics ]

1TSAPair.jpg


He was just shy 4" SCL.. about 3 7/8"

1Maleelegans.jpg


She was a little over 4" SCL.. about 4 1/8"

1Femaleelegans.jpg


- A YEAR AND A MONTH LATER -

He has grown a whole 1/8" SCL.. now 4"

1023MC.jpg


See the ANAL scute spread..

1023MP.jpg


She has grown at least 1/2" SCL.. now 4 5/8"

1023FC.jpg


See the extreme inverted "U" shape of her anal scutes..

1023FP.jpg


The guess is that these hatched in '04.. and it was obvious that they were a pair @ 4" SCL. Whether it is possible to sex them at a smaller size is questionable.

***********

I have noticed that the carapace "pattern" on a female seems to have 'fewer' radiating lines..

SmallmalePAIR.jpg


And OLD adults can be extreme in the size differences of males and females.. { this will really mess-up the 'scute' theory }..

STARPairSIZES.jpg


For more of the story read the article in the "Species Profile" here..

http://www.turtletary.com/stars.html

Terry K

Make that a year and 7 months later!

Dooesn't anyone have anything to say.. ya'll had a zillion Q?'s earlier?

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Yvonne G

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Thanks for posting those pictures, Terry. A picture is worth a thousand words!

Yvonne
 

samstar

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First of all thanks for the beautiful photos and explanation.
A bit confused here, the male has the inverted 'U' shaped scute? and the female the anal scute spread? Correct? Is this one of the ways other than the size of the tail for identifying between male/female?
 

milky

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i got a question would like breeder to answer me this..

e.g.
"A" Couple breed out 1 male & 1 female.
when this 2(1Male & 1Female) big enough can they breed together? will they be anything wrong?
 

Yvonne G

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milky said:
i got a question would like breeder to answer me this..

e.g.
"A" Couple breed out 1 male & 1 female.
when this 2(1Male & 1Female) big enough can they breed together? will they be anything wrong?

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are asking if it would be ok to breed a brother to a sister?

Its not a good idea, but I doubt anything bad would happen with just one breeding. I think problems would start to show up if you kept re-breeding the offspring.

Yvonne
 

milky

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emysemys said:
milky said:
i got a question would like breeder to answer me this..

e.g.
"A" Couple breed out 1 male & 1 female.
when this 2(1Male & 1Female) big enough can they breed together? will they be anything wrong?

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are asking if it would be ok to breed a brother to a sister?

Its not a good idea, but I doubt anything bad would happen with just one breeding. I think problems would start to show up if you kept re-breeding the offspring.

Yvonne

yes that's correct..

btw what this means?
"kept re-breeding the offspring" ?
 

Yvonne G

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That means if you breed a brother to a sister, then breed the babies back to each other, or back to their parents. When you practice "in line breeding" (that's what we've been talking about) if there are any bad traits in the line, they come to the forefront. For example, if you have a tortoise with an ill formed beak and you breed this tortoise to her brother, chances are nothing would show up in the babies. But if you breed those babies back to each other, that ill formed beak would be predominant in THEIR babies.

Yvonne
 

elegans

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"Line Breeding" has been done in all species of captive animals with both wonderful and awful outcomes. The good news with tortoises is that it generally takes at least 5 to 6 years per generation, much longer than most other species. Therefore there has not been much inbreeding as a general rule. With insular species there is even less worry as they would have gone extinct if they could not sort it out on their own. Look at Cyclura species as an example, very similar to tortoises in many respects. Best wishes Douglas
 

egyptiandan

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Can't believe I missed this thread :p

The anal scute theory is definately thrown out Terry as your 4 inch "pair" are actually 2 females. :D

Danny
 

Redfoot NERD

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egyptiandan said:
Can't believe I missed this thread :p

The anal scute theory is definately thrown out Terry as your 4 inch "pair" are actually 2 females. :D

Danny

Might want to look again Danny.. they are a pair :rolleyes:

Terry K
 

Candy

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Opps I bet Terry didn't want to hear that. :p Now I've got to ask Danny to explain why they're female. :D
 

Redfoot NERD

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Candy said:
Opps I bet Terry didn't want to hear that. :p Now I've got to ask Danny to explain why they're female. :D

You beat me to the punch Candy. Sure I would like them to both be female.. this isn't about who is right.. it's about what is right so there is no confusion.

At that small the anal scute is the only way I.. and the TSA partner that sent them to me.. know how to sex them.

Terry K

samstar said:
First of all thanks for the beautiful photos and explanation.
A bit confused here, the male has the inverted 'U' shaped scute? and the female the anal scute spread? Correct? Is this one of the ways other than the size of the tail for identifying between male/female?

Actually the female has the inverted "U" samstar.

Terry K
 

egyptiandan

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We'll take this step by step :)

If you look at the adult male, the very tips of the anal scutes (the original hatchling part of the scute) are growing AWAY from the tail. Also the sides of the anal scutes are CONCAVE (they dip in).
If you look at the adult female, the very tips of the anal scutes are growing IN towards the tail. Also the sides of the anal scutes are CONVEX (they bulge out).

Now look at the supposed male and tell me what you see. :D

Danny
 

Redfoot NERD

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egyptiandan said:
We'll take this step by step :)

If you look at the adult male, the very tips of the anal scute (the original hatchling part of the scute) are growing AWAY from the tail. Also the sides of the anal scutes are CONCAVE (they dip in).
If you look at the adult female, the very tips of the anal scutes are growing IN towards the tail. Also the sides of the anal scutes are CONVEX (they bulge out).

Now look at the supposed male and tell me what you see. :D

Danny

Well if that is true.. hooray for me! huh?

I'll get a few new pics...

Terry K
 

Candy

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Darn it. I'm at work and can't see the pictures so I can't see what Danny's talking about, but when I get home I'll take a look and compare. :D Anyway Terry congratulations on your twin girls. :p
 

Redfoot NERD

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These 2 are probly '05 hatched - virtually same size two years ago -

The one on the left is 4 3/4".. the one on the right is 4 1/4" with much larger tail -

a2004PAIR.jpg


These two are from the adult group above - early 2000 CH

Female is over 7 1/2" and has produced eggs.. the males are 4 3/4" also..

a2000PAIR.jpg


a2000PAIR2.jpg


It has been brought to my attention that these males have unusual anal scute configurations.. whatever that means. And quite a difference in the size of the tails.

When I acquired the '00 CH in '04 they were all right at 4" SCL.. and their anal scutes were almost identical to the younger ones. In two years the female had grown much larger than the males and at about 8 years old their growth rate has virtually stopped.

4 5/8" & 7"..

5and7inch.jpg


This pair is one of 5 pairs from the group which is most likely 30 -40 years old ( no way to tell other than the worn plastrons ).. from a large confiscated shipment some years ago -

STARPairSIZES.jpg


Doesn't appear we can rely entirely on the anal scutes.. does it?

Terry K
 

egyptiandan

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Yup they are both still female :)

The males did have problems with the way the plastrons grew, but you can still see that the ends of the anal scutes are growing away from the tails and not towards the tails. :D

They all look great Terry :)

Danny
 

Candy

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Those are very confusing to me. So what you're saying Danny is that if tips of the anal scutes are pointing outward away from the tail then it's a boy and if they are puffy and pointing inward towards the tail then it's a female?
 
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