seeking LOTS of (Home's?) hingeback help & advice

[ErinB]

Hello! First off, I read through the guidelines and everything, but I'm still not sure I'm posting to the correct place... please let me know if I'm in the wrong place or anything!

Basically, I'm a college student home for the summer, and I am very concerned about my youngest brother's hingeback tortoise. We believe she is a she, and she was purchased from a pet store about 8-10 years ago. I'm not sure which kind of hingeback she is, even after looking through the forums, but I'm thinking a Home's that has been kept in too dry a climate for far too long.

My biggest concern is her feet. I brought her to the vet today to have her nails cut (I was worried they would bleed if I did it myself, but they didn't end up bleeding at all). Her nails grow almost sideways, and were almost at the point where they were trying to grow into her skin. She is kept on 'reptibark' wood chips in an aquarium, but I don't know what substrate has been used in the past. Would a deeper, more dirt-like substrate be better for her? Does anyone by any chance have a video of a hingeback walking, so that I could compare it to her gait? I could also take a video of her movement - it seems to me like she almost drags her back legs.

She also gets scabs on her neck on occasion, which I believe is a result of dry climate and a poor diet. The vet gave me a 1% silver sulfadiazine cream, which has helped in the past. She also has a spot on her shell right along the hinge that appears flaky/scaly, and the vet advised using the cream on this as well because it at the very least can't hurt while we try to figure out what is happening. I attached a picture, but I forgot to take it before putting the cream on so it just mostly looks white. Again, I suspect she just isn't getting enough water.

She eats "healthy herp" food, either the "tortoise food" or "veggie mix" kind mixed with canned pumpkin. I'm not sure where the pumpkin idea came from, but at this point she is spoiled and won't eat without it. Her feces are extremely runny the majority of the time, and we have never had her tested for parasites or anything (which I know can be a major problem with these species). She rarely if ever gets any other food, and I don't think we have ever given her insects/meat products. She won't eat greens, but will sometimes eat fruit.

I really want to make it clear that I know basically nothing about reptiles, this is not my tortoise but I want to make things right, and, most importantly, I am NOT comfortable with the way Jenny is being kept. I just want to make things right. I personally have two rats that are rescues, and I keep them in a five foot tall enclosure full of things to dig in, play with, and sleep on. My parents never should have let us purchase this tortoise as children, but I am old enough now to recognize that we are absolutely terrible owners.

I truly appreciate any help that anyone can give me! I am ultimately going to try to find a more suitable home for her, but I want to fix whatever I can right now before that happens. I am also searching for reptile rescues within a few hours of Chicago, IL, if anyone happens to know of anyone in the area.

 

[tortadise]

No reason to beat yourself up. The pet store should of not sold a rather difficult species to you guys to begin with. But we will help you out. She looks like an erosa to me. They come from Uganda to Zaire, in the depths in the rainforest in Africa. They need a very high level of humidity. LOTS of fresh water, and LOTS of hiding spaces. Ive never heard of those foods. I would ween her from the commercial diets except mazuri. Canned pumpkin is usually what these guys eat afte there imported because they stress rather easy. Try mushrooms, squash and worms or snails mixed up and she should devour it. Make sure to keep her very hydrated. I would definitely get her a deworming treatment from the vet. Usually pancur power takes care of the parasites in these guys. She needs to have a closed top encloaure to help with te humidity levels. A very deep substrate, they like to dig under there hides. Lots of plants like pothos, hosts are great for edibility and cover for her. You definitely need to get her diet looking better. These guys are actually omnivores, so I recommend snails, worms, boiled chicken. Not every day though. Couple times a week.


Could you also get a photo of the enclosure.

And a photo of "her" plastron (underside) to accurately define if it's a boy or girl?

 

[EricIvins]

It is definately a Homeana, and they will not eat greens of any sort.......They need protein, and lots of it, and these guys are about the most aquatic Tortoises you'll find and are fairly nocturnal in everything they do.......Keep them warm, humid, dark, and take it from there.........

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Erin:

Welcome to the Tortoise Forum!!

It's good that you have taken over this tortoise's care, as she has been given incorrect care for a long time. We hear frequent "bad news" stories from new keepers trying to take care of hingeback tortoises, where the tortoise didn't make it. So the fact that your brother's tortoise has stayed alive is a tribute to its will to live. They aren't one of the easiest species to take care of.

Before you give the tortoise to a rescue, give our hingeback keepers a chance to take her in. We have several, but I don't know if they are close to where you are.

Good luck with the tortoise. I hope you can get it set up properly and everything goes well.

 

[ErinB]

Thank you all for your responses so far! I have attached a picture of the enclosure as it is now - there are two bulbs, one red and one white and I believe one of them is UVB, and the tank is heated. The water seems too shallow to me, but we're unsure of where to get something that would work better as the tortoise has been known to flip herself over trying to climb up onto things. I'll be browsing some of the example enclosures on the forum tomorrow for ideas. I also added more substrate so she can dig a little more, and she fits perfectly under that log and does spend a lot of time in there. She also has a cuttlebone that she uses regularly, and her beak has never been very overgrown as far as I can tell. Is the cuttlebone a good idea to have in there, and if so how often should we replace it?

I also attached pictures to hopefully help ID gender. My brother and I looked online years ago, hence calling her "her" and naming "her" Jenny, I'll probably just say 'her' for now until someone lets me know. I think the tail was what we were mostly considering, but I wouldn't be surprised if we got it wrong! Let me know if these photos aren't good enough, I took them quickly since it's been quite the stressful day visiting the vet as it is.

I actually a good deal of houseplants, including a golden pothos and some spider plants. Is there somewhere I can look for specific plants that would work well here?

Honestly, I was kind of shocked to find out that hingebacks are common, easy pets, since we got her without any special instructions and have had her for such a long time without any major issues. I'll definitely work on getting her treated for parasites just in case - my brother reports that she's been eating more than usual lately, but up until recently she ate very little so it's hard to say. I've read that they should be fed 5-7 days a week, but how much should tortoises of this size eat?
Thanks again!

 

[NudistApple]

I am not familiar with this species, but that enclosure is definitely much, much too small for her. A cheap upgrade would be to get as large as possible of a bin for her (think 1-2 christmas tree bins) and then get some plexiglass cut for the top. Since they are a humidity loving species you will want pretty much only where the lamps will sit to be open. You can mix your current substrate with just normal topsoil (from your own backyard if you don't use pesticides!) from Home Depot or Lowes. They sell 40lb bags of organic topsoil for less than 4$ a bag, I bought 120lbs the other day for under 10$.

These two websites have tortoise safe plants that you can use in your enclosure:
http://www.africantortoise.com/edible_landscaping.htm
http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/tortoise_home_1.asp

For a cheap new soaking pan, think large paint pan! The have the slope to allow her to get in and out easily, while still allowing for a decent amount of water.
Cuttlebone is great for them to have, I would switch it out as it appears be getting dirty.
Also, those little analog dials you have to measure temperature and humidity are very, very inaccurate. You best option is to get a nice digital indoor/outdoor temp/humidty gauge with a probe so that you can check both side.

Personally I bought one of these for my cool end, which measures the temperature (in Celsius) and more importantly the humidity;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Digita...her_Meters&hash=item1e695e1854#ht_4138wt_1396

And then one of these, which I use to check all 3 important temperatures (basking spot, hot end, cool end) many times throughout the day;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Non-Contact...ltDomain_0&hash=item1c244f684a#ht_2352wt_1163
It can measure in Fahrenheit as well, and I find it to be more convenient (and aesthetically pleasing) than having multiple digital thermometers around the enclosure.

 

[Jacqui]

Hi! I really don't have time to give you a really detailed amount of help at this time (have a few chores still do to before work), but I will be back tonight. First thing I would say is soak her and get the humidity up. She is very very dry. She does need a much larger enclosure and I myself like using the black stock tanks made for sheep. I use a mix of coir blocks and some playsand about 20% sand. Then I have old leaves in a pile. She needs a dish she can actually get completely into and soak in water up to where her two shells meet.

Here is a very simple and plain example of one of my isolation units. Please ignore the old and well used terra cotta feed dish.

This is a simple outside enclosure:

Main thing is, we need to start with the basic need and that is to get her into a larger enclosure and with more ability to get into the water and have higher humidity. When I come back in tonight, I will give you some help on food and such.

Just to give a heads up, if you do decide to place her, I take in all hingebacks needing permanent homes and would be willing to try working with you on arranging that... if in the end that is how you and your family decide you want to do things.

---

I have found them to be relatively easy tortoises to keep, certainly not a hard one. As for the cuttlebone, yes it's fine especially with the bad diet it's good she is eating it. They do enjoy time under their logs or places to hide under (such as plants real or plastic). You will find, if you use real plants (especially in a smaller enclosure) your active hingeback will be stomping them. This means constant replacement, so you may want to go plastic. I like the spider (airplane) plants, pothos, hostas, pansies/violets, and vine plants which come up free from all the muskmelon seeds from feeding those.

 

[ErinB]

RE: seeking LOTS of (Home's?) hingeback help & advice

I have her(?) soaking now, she seems to like it as far as I can tell! How long should one soak a tortoise? Should I do this every day until we can get a decent habitat set up?

She's also made grunting sounds for as long as I can remember. I can't tell if it's trouble breathing or something else. It seems like she breathes through her nose without sound but sometimes opens her mouth and gasps. Is this a stress response? She's had a lot more adventure than usual lately and I don't want to shock her or anything! I think the sounds that are definitely breathing are from dryness, as are her weepy eyes.

This is unfortunately all happening at not the best time - I have work all this week, and my brother has exams all week then leaves for 5 weeks starting this weekend. So the plan is to rearrange his room to fit a reasonable enclosure, then get supplies and set up Thursday or Friday after I'm done with work.

I just can't see how my family can keep a tortoise for as long as I imagine she'll live. My brother goes to college after another year, my parents don't want her, and I'll probably be off to grad school. If we do decide to rehome her it will absolutely be to somewhere permanent, with the hope that we could visit her. We have more than a year to figure that out though and I'll have to wait at least five weeks to get my brother's input. I want to keep it in mind as I move forward though and will definutely keep in touch with anyone interested.

Once again, seriously, thank you all so much. You're all helping to improve this tortoise's life and I really hope I can post some much happier, healthier pictures after this weekend!

 

[chairman]

I also keep my home's in stock tanks. I used 110 gallon stock tanks from tractor supply, I believe they cost me around $60 each. When I first got my hingebacks I used the bark as well and I had similar dryness/nail issues (despite living in humid FL). I have moved to a topsoil/mulch/leaves mix with great success. I keep the dirt stocked with worms (one of my tortoises is being a real pain in the rear digging for them) and pill bugs to act as a clean-up crew. Mine eat mostly mazuri and fruits, though two will munch on greens/weeds when the mood strikes them.

My little digger (that half cat carrier used to be completely covered by dirt, he pulled the dirt away and popped the hide out from its hole to find snacks):

 

[Jacqui]

Don't worry about doing it all at once. This tortoise has survived for this long, she will survive while you step by step improve it's life.

I would soak her for 20 mins a day (unless she seems stressed by it), until I have a suitable place for her to be soaking on her own and see her doing so. I have used the plastic colored plant water catching saucers for at lot of my hingebacks. They are cheap and usually easy to find (such as at WalMart). However if you can find the glazed clay ones, they are even better due to weight making them harder to tip over.

I have a Bells who when under stress does an occasional wheeze. I have also saw hingebacks who are stressed from lack of humidity do a wheeze. Keep an eye on if it changes any, but would not be overly concerned at this point about it being anything serious. The eyes on a Homes is kinda a weepy look doe type eye, is that kinda what your seeing? Looks wet, but is not running liquids.

---

Mike that is a cute picture!!!

 

[ErinB]

RE: seeking LOTS of (Home's?) hingeback help & advice

I'm trying to think positively and work in baby steps. It's much easier now that I've gotten started!

Jenny got her first mushrooms and, sure enough, totally devoured them. She seems to enjoy soaking, and gets very active in the bathtub, which I think is also good for her legs since it makes moving around a little easier. Im still worried about how her front legs turn in and she seems to drag her back legs, but i think it will get better with more space and activity. I also mixed some extra soil I had leftover from my rats' dig box in with her substrate, but no clue if that's helping yet.

The gauges in the current tank are definitely garbage, we don't actually use them for anything.
She is always doe eyed, but does also actually get weepy on occasion. I think regular soaking is helping though, and it also seems to have already started to improve her skin.

My brother also mentioned that she sometimes rubs the front of her head against the side of the tank to the point that she has an open sore there. I think this is probably boredom since her tank is so small and she would prefer to be pretty active.

I think that's all to report for now!

 

[ErinB]

RE: seeking LOTS of (Home's?) hingeback help & advice

Would a 72x24x18 tank be a reasonable size? I found one on craigslist for $40 but we're not positive we'll be able to get it up the stairs...!

 

[Kristina]

That would definitely be an improvement! I believe that is the same size stock tank that I kept my original three Home's in.

I'm not sure if anyone has touched on this at all, but they will definitely eat greens, if acclimated to them properly. One thing that you could do is to smear some of that canned pumpkin on the greens. Since she likes it already, it will entice her to try new things. You can gradually reduce the amount of pumpkin as she begins to eat a wider variety. Bright red, yellow, and orange food items also tempt them.

I am a bit biased but I would suggest reading this article http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-Home-s-Hingeback-Tortoise#axzz1xCKnZAvO The issue that I have with the other articles out there is that they are a bit generic and don't really cover the habits of HOME'S Hingebacks. I wrote this article based on observation of my own homeana, extensive research into the natural habitat and climate of these guys, and field articles written by Dwight Lawson who is really the only one who has written about his observations of wild behavior, stomach contents, etc.

My indoor set up is almost identical to Jacqui's and Mike's.

Here is my group mowwing down on a big pile of greens

 

[NudistApple]

Just a thought, but the issues she is having with her legs might be due to MBD (metabolic bone disease)? If she hasn't gotten a lot of calcium and UVB light over the course of her life that could definitely due it.

If so, you can't ever really REVERSE the effects of MBD, but you can stop it form getting worse, and in some cases it is reversible to a small degree.

 

[chairman]

The walking 'funny' thing could be normal. Hingebacks do not look graceful when they're walking like the domed tortoises do. It is night and day watching my hingebacks run around compared to my sulcata. Hingebacks do climb much better than most tortoises, so the funny looking gait probably has payoffs for them.

 

[ErinB]

RE: seeking LOTS of (Home's?) hingeback help & advice

I keep forgetting to mention how adorable that picture of the little digger was! I love the idea of keeping worms and pill bugs, it's just like snails or things like that in an aquarium.


I'm loving all of your enclosures. Do you have open tops? Where can I go to get a top for a tank once I get my hands on one? I think in the area we do have and with only one tortoise a tank is my best bet, assuming I can find one. The first one I found is possibly too far away, but other emails have been sent.

As for MBD, she does have a UVB light in her tank and I think has always had one, but I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't process it well with her poor diet. I looked up symptoms and I'm not sure either way. You can kind of see what I'm worried about in the first few photos I posted - her front legs turn in kind of like a bulldog, and she tends to not fully stand on her back legs but just drags them behind her. She bends them a little and is capable of standing on them, she just usually doesn't. Are there any primary, very common symptoms to watch for?

 

[Oogway]

welcome to the forum! good luck with the tortoise! it sounds like you are very engaged in making a proper home for it, im sure itll turn out well

 

[ErinB]

RE: seeking LOTS of (Home's?) hingeback help & advice

Thank you!

I forget things every time I post haha
Kristina, I absolutely love your article. I had actually already stumbled on it browsing the other Home's threads on here. I completely agree that it is vital to know a specific species - part of the reason I decided to join here is because our vet doesn't know anything specific to hingebacks, let alone Home's, and I work at a zoo but they only have an erosa.

Mike also replied right before I hit send on my last post. I think I'm leaning towards the idea that her movement is odd movement to begin with combined with years on a substrate she could slide more easily than actually walk on. Her nails were also severely overgrown for who knows how long, so that probably didn't help keeping her feet positioned correctly either. I'm really, really hoping it's not too late for her dinky back legs to get buff again!

 

[ErinB]

I took a video of her walking, sorry about the poor quality as it was taken with my phone. It shows what I'm talking about better than I can explain it. I tried a few angles; I think that it shows it best at around 13 seconds in.
From the other videos I've been able to find it seems like her front legs turning in might not be especially abnormal, but dragging her back legs and the bottom/back of her shell is not right. Since she's such an active gal I've just been lifting it up for her and letting her walk around like that every chance I get and hoping she'll get there on her own with practice.

(For the record, our dog is elderly, has never shown any more than minimal interest in the tortoise, and is NEVER left alone anywhere near her... I've heard the horror stories )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFDZDaRGFM8

 

[chairman]

Hingebacks are usually tall walkers. They look funny to me because their back legs kind of poke out straight down like they're on stilts whereas other tortoises have a more streamlined appearance (at least to me). I'm not sure that I've ever heard of a home's with MBD. My guesses from your video would be splay leg or a stone. A stone would require a vet visit and an xray to confirm, splay leg typically just takes time and patience for the muscles to develop/recover from being on inappropriate substrate.