Scared for my yearling, Bowser

[Zey]

I'm newly registered to this forum, although I have viewed quite a few threads here. The reason I am posting is because I am a bit scared for my yearling sulcata.

Some background on Bowser is, that he is a bit over a year old, I personally have owned him for a year and he was extremely tiny when I first got him. He is now 155 grams on average although it ranges day to day based on whether he takes a poop or not lol. He lived in a 20 gallon long tank up until recently when he outgrew it, and is now in a 40 gallon breeder, he is quite comfy in there. About two months ago my roommate got a baby bearded dragon to live with Bowser and they get along great, but recently my friend decided to switch feeding the bearded dragon crickets to meal worms. I stressed that the meal worms can't be accessible to Bowser, although he always left the crickets alone and never attempted to eat any, but the mealworms have been crawling around the tank now and this morning i saw him eat two of them. It hasn't been a problem for long with the meal worms, and they are small, but I saw him eat one, frantically tried to open the top of the tank and stopped him from eating a third.

I feel pretty crappy about this and I don't know what to do. I don't have room for another tank so thats not an option and the meal worm problem will be solved within a few days.. my roommate isn't home now and hasn't answered my texts so theres not much I really can do.

Tonight I noticed that Bowser is a bit sluggish, and thinking back on it, has been for a few days. So now I'm scared that he likes the meal worms and has been munching on them for a week or so. I'm not certain that he is extra sluggish or if he is just enjoying a new backing light that I have for him, but he sure has been laying under the light and taking a nap more often than he usually would have.

I'm just wondering what anyone with more knowledge thinks about this. I know sulcatas are not supposed to eat any type of animal or insect protein, however they of course come across insects in their wild habitat. He has been eating plenty of the food that I give him so its not like he's surviving off of meal worms. Is this a serious problem that could kill him short term? is his sluggishness from loving the new basking lamp or from eating too much protein? Is this normal considering it could happen in the wild?

 

[wellington]

Hello and Welcome. First off, the two should not be housed together. Tell your room mate s/he needs to find a new home or cage for his Beardie. He did not do,your sully any favors putting them together. If you don't think,that can happen, then tell the room mate to feed the dragon in a different enclosure. I would not let the sully have any more worms. They aren't even the best thing to feed a dragon.

---

Also, please read Toms threads below in my post for,the proper care and housing of your sully. I would also be sure to soak him every day in warm water for 20-30 minutes for a while, until he seems better.

 

[T33's Torts]

Wellington (Barb) made a typo. She meant do NOT let the sulcata get any worms.

 

[Yvonne G]

Mealworms, while not part of the regular diet, probably won't harm the tortoise. But, if it were me, my tortoise and my room mate, I would tell the room mate he has to get a separate habitat for the lizard ASAP. Lizards and tortoises should not be housed together. Yes, a tortoise might come across a lizard in his natural range, however, in nature he isn't forced to stay in the same small cage as the lizard. This is not a good situation. I think that rather than be worried about the tortoise having ate a few mealworms, I would be worried what pathogens might have been passed from the lizard to the tortoise.

 

[Zey]

Hello and Welcome. First off, the two should not be housed together. Tell your room mate a/he needs to find a new home or cage for his Beardie. He did not do,your sully any favors putting them together. If you don't think,that can happen, then tell the room mate to feed the dragon in a different enclosure. I would. It let the sully have any more worms. They aren't even the best thing to feed a dragon.

---

Also, please read Toms threads below in my post for,the proper care and housing of your sully. I would also be sure to soak him every day in warm water for 20-30 minutes for a while, until he seems better.

---

Thanks for the quick reply, if I could have separated the two I would have, however the living room only has enough space right now for one enclosure. Other than feeding, I didn't really see any problems arising from keeping them together... Beardie hang out on a stick and bowser walks around the floor of the tank and they like to hang out in the same temperature. I'm definitely keeping him away from the worms the best I can, however I don't want to be a jerk to my roommate and just rid the tank of what he feeds his little guy without him knowing.

 

[wellington]

Wellington (Barb) made a typo. She meant do NOT let the sulcata get any worms.

Wow, I had made a few. Thanks for pointing that out. I did fix them all I think.

 

[Zey]

Mealworms, while not part of the regular diet, probably won't harm the tortoise. But, if it were me, my tortoise and my room mate, I would tell the room mate he has to get a separate habitat for the lizard ASAP. Lizards and tortoises should not be housed together. Yes, a tortoise might come across a lizard in his natural range, however, in nature he isn't forced to stay in the same small cage as the lizard. This is not a good situation. I think that rather than be worried about the tortoise having ate a few mealworms, I would be worried what pathogens might have been passed from the lizard to the tortoise.

It isn't really an option for us to not house them together. Within a year or so I will have bowser outdoors for 4 months of the year, but he's still too small. I understand that pathogens can be passed, and it is not optimal to house them together, however I can't help but fear for liver damage from the animal proteins. I take good care of little bowser and I make sure the tank is clean. Both of them are healthy animals, and they don't come into contact with outside pathogens so I ruled that out. I haven't even used outside dirt for bowser yet.

 

[wellington]

Your tort getting outside time is the best thing you can do for him. The pathogens Yvonne is talking about are not from outside, but only from the dragon. I understand your situation. However, you need to insist that the dragon be put in another container at least for feeding time. Your room mate was not very considerate of you or your torts situation. At least he can have enough consideration to feed the dragon in a separate container so you don't need to worry about what your tort eats. After all the tort was there first. Your room mate should have to do what is nessicary for your tort to not be effected by the worms. I had a dragon, he will do fine eating in a different enclosure. In fact, I used to feed mine with tweezers so I wouldn't have any bugs loose. Tell your room mate to do that.

 

[Tom]

I can't believe what I am reading...

1. These two species have totally different housing requirements. They should not be housed together for behavioral, pathogenic, environmental and dietary reasons.
2. You have some other major problems going on there too. 155 grams at more than a year old? That is very undersized. They should be at least 400 and as much as 1000 grams by that age.
3. 40 gallons is a minimum size for a brand new hatching, but only for a few weeks. Your tortoise needs a bigger enclosure now. Much bigger.

Housing your animals correctly is "not an option?" Then give them to someone who can and will house them properly. If you came here for someone to tell you that doing everything all wrong is okay, you are not going to find it. Your animals deserve better. If you want tips on how to assess what is wrong and improve things, then you have come to the right place. I can't speak for anyone else, but when I hear someone acknowledge that what they are doing to an animal is not okay, and then say that doing it correctly is not an option, that is someone who should not have animals.

 

[jaketheskate]

Take care of ur tort sometimes u have to do things that will help it even if they take a long time. I have had my RT in a wayyyy too small cage but now my dad and I are building a new one so he will have it soonish. If u really care about Bowser you will at least start doing something productive. Good luck.

 

[Wartortle]

I know I wouldn't let my roommate ever potentially harm my tortoise. I know it never had any bad intent, but if your tortoise ever has major problems, who would you blame? Yourself or your roommate? What are you going to do when your tortoise gets too big to live indoors? Plan for the future is all I have to suggest. Also probably to keep the dragon in his bedroom if there isn't space in another room. There is always a way to separate them. Sorry, no exceptions.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Please remember you came to the forum for advise and they are just trying to help . They know what they are doing and saying . Good luck with your tort .

 

[Zey]

I can't believe what I am reading...

1. These two species have totally different housing requirements. They should not be housed together for behavioral, pathogenic, environmental and dietary reasons.
2. You have some other major problems going on there too. 155 grams at more than a year old? That is very undersized. They should be at least 400 and as much as 1000 grams by that age.
3. 40 gallons is a minimum size for a brand new hatching, but only for a few weeks. Your tortoise needs a bigger enclosure now. Much bigger.

Housing your animals correctly is "not an option?" Then give them to someone who can and will house them properly. If you came here for someone to tell you that doing everything all wrong is okay, you are not going to find it. Your animals deserve better. If you want tips on how to assess what is wrong and improve things, then you have come to the right place. I can't speak for anyone else, but when I hear someone acknowledge that what they are doing to an animal is not okay, and then say that doing it correctly is not an option, that is someone who should not have animals.

People on forums can be very extreme about their animals. Yes we want them to have proper care, however if he had not eaten any meal worms there would be absolutely nothing wrong with my set up. You may think that closer quarters with a bearded dragon is exposing him to pathogens but this isn't a domestic animal, he can handle a few pathogens from one animal in a very cleanly and controlled environment. The size of the tank is plenty for him considering I have him out of the tank a few times a day for an hour each time. He gets plenty of exercise and is a happy little guy. Also, what you said about him being undersized is completely false; I have followed a caretakers thread with pictures, weights and lengths for multiple sulcatas and he had torts that were 2 months older than bowser at only 146 grams; while it is true that he had other that weighed almost 100 grams at that age, they were raised with the same care and this size difference was due to genetics. It is hard to tell when a sulcata is going to hit that spurt, when they triple in size over the course of just a few months. My guess is that Bowser will have his over the summer when he has access to real sunlight and grazing in my yard.

I know I wouldn't let my roommate ever potentially harm my tortoise. I know it never had any bad intent, but if your tortoise ever has major problems, who would you blame? Yourself or your roommate? What are you going to do when your tortoise gets too big to live indoors? Plan for the future is all I have to suggest. Also probably to keep the dragon in his bedroom if there isn't space in another room. There is always a way to separate them. Sorry, no exceptions.

I would definitely blame myself, thats why I'm here, to try and fix the problems that I can right now. I'm going to definitely get all of the meal worms out of the cage, I have a deep dish plastic bowl that the mealworms cant get out of that will go on top of the tortoise hut, and that bowser can not have access to. I also will suggest that my friend starts feeding the beardie in a different cage, although I know my friend tried a few times and was worried that his beardie would starve because he didn't eat when he tried it.
It's true that there are ways to separate them but its more that its not an option at this time. Saving up for new light fixtures and building supplies to build a tortoise box is something that will have to be done, but its not something that I can do instantaneously. Theres also the problem with space, which would mean I would need a new bookshelf to keep my library on that is low enough to put his box on top on with space to put it underneath. I was really planning on getting that done for the summer so I could keep the box outdoors and just bring him inside on colder nights.

I understand that these things are not optimal for a perfect habitat, but I must stress that sulcata tortoises are non-domesticated wild animals from the sulcata desert in Africa, the best environment is that from which they came from and there is no way for anyone to perfectly replicate that. In fact keeping him in an enclosure with other animals is closer to a natural habitat and could have positive psychological effects on Bowser that you would not consider. This is not to say that I know more than anyone else, but unless there was a direct experience with a tort getting sick from a bearded dragon, you are just making an assumption. Sorry for the rant there but I really do take good care of him, and he's happy. He may have an upset stomach from the meal worms but his stool has been normal, and I was worried about liver damage.

 

[T33's Torts]

Yes, there WOULD be things wrong with your setup! Sulcata's need 75-85% humidity and temperatures from 80-100°. Bearded dragons dont.
Also, I REALLY wouldn't doubt Tom. Your sulcata is VERY under weight. My 8 month olds are both over 800 grams.
And I'm assuming he's on SAND, correct? Sans causes impaction when injested and can truely cause death. No offense to your roommate, but that is just plain out rude to shove a lizard with a sulcata. Both will die eventually being cared like so. One sulcata, a baby, should have a minimum of 2'x4' ALL THE TIME. And how do you know he's "happy"? You're sticking a human emotion to a reptile. If animals could have feeling (which I doubt) I'm postive he's not happy.

---

Honestly, if this is the BEST care you can provide, you're not in any place to be caring for a sulcata. They're a LOT of work. If you can't provide for this little guy, get a beta fish.

 

[ascott]

You said your tort outgrew the 20 gallon long tank? Why would you simply not use that tank for the bearded? I mean, then you could set up the tank for the bearded and not have to worry about them eating one anothers goodies?

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/177610779027794694/

You could even make use of some creative lifting of the smaller tank over and above Bowsers, you can use some blocks like this (or a few more to bring all upwards instead of outward use of square footage in a tight space???)

I like that they showed them painted, this lets you do all kinds of fun stuff to suit your current situation...heck, later you can use them for outdoor tortoise space

 

[Yvonne G]

I know it sounds like we're picking on you, Zey, but we really only have the tortoise's best interest at heart.

I get the impression from reading your posts that you wanted us to tell you yes, everything is quite ok. You were hoping we'd stand behind you. But this is not the case. Everything is not ok. If you don't have room for two enclosures, then stack one of them on top of the other one. Ascott gave you a VERY good idea. Even if you can't afford to buy a board and some cinder blocks, you can still set the smaller tank on top of the larger one. Yes, it will be inconvenient, but we're talking your tortoise's life here, not convenience.

I'm sure if you open your mind to a different way of keeping your tortoise, you'll be able to figure it out.

 

[ascott]

I'm not certain that he is extra sluggish or if he is just enjoying a new backing light that I have for him, but he sure has been laying under the light and taking a nap more often than he usually would have.

Not unusual to find a warm comfy spot and make like a sloth....lol

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/...rZmhUZLyytGaySTy_zcRHuTO3IQOL0Ahrzj93lpBylPZg

Also, the only thing that I would have a problem with mealworms is, me eating them....lol....ew ick puke (for me anyway , I know folks harvest them, cook them, eat em raw, as a seasoning and such)

I know they are a high source of protein ( about 25% and about 12% fat--both a good thing in moderation for a tort--more like a treat than an actual "food source") ....

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

In the event that Zey hasn't run off, I've a few questions in regard to the logic used in all of this being ok.
You mention that in the wild, these tortoises come from the “Sulcata Desert" please, sir, on google maps, provide me a screenshot of where this magical land might be. Is it in Australia, where there bearded dragon roam perhaps, or maybe Africa, where the monkeys with the colorful buts are? I'm truly curious.
While the keeping of a bearded dragon is fairly straightforward, the proper husbandry of a sulcata changes over the life of the tortoise. I could give a rats a$$ how you are keeping beardie, but I am curious as to how you are keeping your tortoise. What is your substrate? What are your temps at the cool side, warm side, and under your basking light at the tortoises carapace level? How are you measuring these? What is the nighttime, lights out temp? What are your humidity levels and how are you measuring them?
Zey, if you're still here, let me know. Send me a PM if that is more comfortable for you.
Understand that no one here is directly assaulting you, just the misinformation you have received. It's not personal.

 

[erdavis]

I know that it seems like everyone is picking on you, but we are just huge animal lovers and want the best for your tortoise and your roommates bearded dragon. And quite honestly, these people have way more experience than you and know what they are talking about. Even if you can just make small changes one by one, that is a step.

How about for now (before you can get a new tank) you put a feeder for the dragon where your tortoise can't reach it.

Then, get with your roommate and find old things you don't need. When I found a puppy I just had to keep I didn't have the funds for it so I sold my guitar that had been sitting in my closet for years, my skates, a neighbors old skateboard, and even a huge stuffed dog that i got when I was 6. How about you and your roommate make a goal to help your animals and you take a look around your house at the stuff that you don't need, and you sell it on craigslist. I got more than enough money from the stuff I sold you pay for food, puppy shots, neuter, and toys just from stuff I didn't need. You can do the same. You can even skip a couple of going out to lunches or dinners to get the money. Anything helps.

After you sell stuff, or even before if you have a little cash, go on craigslist and look up stuff you need. After 5 minutes of looking at stuff near me I found a 40 gallon breeder tank for 60 dollars, which isn't bad at all. Then after a little more searching I found someone selling 2 60 gallon tanks for $30 each. You can't beat that. Who cares if the supplies you get are old or not perfect, even a little rusted? Your tortoise won't thats for sure. Hell, you can even sell your nicer 40 gallon tank for 60 dollars and buy the 2 60 gallon one so both the tortoise and the dragon can get an upgrade! Then, look at lights and soil and such. I know that we're probably nowhere close together so you can't get travel to get the 60 gallon tank, but my point is that there are resources to help you, you just have to look.

Why don't you get another tank and maybe figure out a way to stack them on top of each other, or put one in your room?

When my sister first bought my baby sulcata tortoise for me she wanted it to be a christmas surprise so she kept it for 3 months until christmas. But she didn't have the money for all of the supplies. She went to several pet stores/fish stores and asked for any help. One pet store ended up GIVING her a 30 gallon fish tank that had a crack in it for free. The pet store didn't have a use for it because it didn't hold water, but she knew that my sulcata didn't need a tank full of water, and there was nothing a little duct tape couldn't fix. (BTW, the 30 gallon tank was only used until I received him for christmas and could buy my own tank)

I'm sorry this is so long, I just really want to help out you and your baby. I hope we haven't scared you off. Please keep reading these threads, they're great. And best of luck. Please keep us posted. Best of luck to you guys.

 

[LABZOO]

Mealworms, while not part of the regular diet, probably won't harm the tortoise. But, if it were me, my tortoise and my room mate, I would tell the room mate he has to get a separate habitat for the lizard ASAP. Lizards and tortoises should not be housed together. Yes, a tortoise might come across a lizard in his natural range, however, in nature he isn't forced to stay in the same small cage as the lizard. This is not a good situation. I think that rather than be worried about the tortoise having ate a few mealworms, I would be worried what pathogens might have been passed from the lizard to the tortoise.

It isn't really an option for us to not house them together. Within a year or so I will have bowser outdoors for 4 months of the year, but he's still too small. I understand that pathogens can be passed, and it is not optimal to house them together, however I can't help but fear for liver damage from the animal proteins. I take good care of little bowser and I make sure the tank is clean. Both of them are healthy animals, and they don't come into contact with outside pathogens so I ruled that out. I haven't even used outside dirt for bowser yet.

NOT AN OPTION? IS NOT A F' OPTION...