Russian temps in n. california

[K8E K]

I've had a a russian for the last three months or so that was brought to me after living at least the last 10 years in a small glass tank with a male.

On my property she currently lives outdoors in coastal Northern California, so I've been ferrying her inside when nighttime temperatures drop below 60 (rare but possible this time of year). Normally the temps in her burrow (not yet insulated, but a buried wooden box with hay) stay several degrees warmer with the temp gun. Usually about 65 after dark, but still early in the night. I have a record low/high thermometer that I've been using in the substrate, and it's fairly close to what I see on my temp gun.

During the day, the substrate in the full sun typically hits upwards of 108 to occasionally 115 or so, but the range in her space is wide- the air temp is around 75 late in the day, and still around 80-90 in her pen in the early evening sun.

She tends to be very shy and remain in her burrow, and I want to double check recommendations about temperatures, especially if there are any specific to my area. I have heated night boxes for other species, and we're putting in a new greenhouse, so it's certainly not difficult for me to rectify any issues that need changing.

My main concern would be that it's too cold on average.

I'd like to hibernate her (I'm well aware of the debate about this, and happy to hear any opinions- I've been preparing that setup along with a contingency- she'll be indoors this year if she's not hibernating- in case I can't verify that she's as healthy as I'd like).

So- opinions about N.Cal specific outdoor quarters? Do people have additional basking heat available? Heated night boxes? The cold box I put in her space wasn't used after about a month, so I removed it for more roaming- opinions on that?

Thanks!

 

[Tom]

The temp of the substrate doesn't tell us much. My black tubs will heat up to 95 degrees in the sun on a 50 degree winter day. Okay for sunning, but I wouldn't want any tortoise living that way all the time.

75, sunny and dry sounds great for a russian. 60 degree nights followed by warm days should be fine too. When we move into fall, you might need to keep the tortoise indoors more, or provide someway to warm up outside until its time for hibernation. To some degree, the tortoises behavior will also tell you if conditions are suitable. Eating and active? Things are probably good. Hiding all the time and not eating? Might need to change something.

About hibernation: I'm also in favor of it when done correctly. Leaving a tortoise outside to suffer the whims of mother nature is not "correct" in my view, and this is what some people do and recommend. We can talk more about this in October.

 

[K8E K]

So right now, my rule of thumb has been above 60 as the night time low, outside with no extra heat. below 60 night time low, inside at night (and outside for any portion of the day above 60).

You got right to the crux, though, of my super meandering question: she's hiding all the time. And polishing off quite an impressive amount of food for her size. I'm not sure how to read that. My assumption based on her behavior and the brief interaction I had with the previous caretakers is that people don't equal anything positive for her (she sees me coming with any extra food drop off beyond the grazing, turns tail and goes straight to the burrow), and also that an outdoor space is very new. I didn't chalk it up to more than needing her own large space and peace and quiet for the first few months, but I'm second guessing the temperature as a factor. Based on the food that's being eaten, I don't think it's too far off, but I also had the thought that if it's too cold at night it's taking her a long while to warm up and get going. Or it's all fine. Just looking to be called out or reassured depending!

I really appreciate the response. I don't want to assume something that I'm not *sure* I'm doing correctly when I may in fact be totally mistaken, and not providing the ideal housing.

Re: hibernating- right now the plan is to have her in a box in a box, on our basement workbench (unfinished/unheated), with a temp/humidity gauge and thermostat on a heat pad or CHE to keep it at 50 f. We don't actually get many nights in the basement below 40 even mid winter (outside lows average 45 in January), but it definitely dips below 50. Days can get back up to 60 in daytime by Feb. I am cautious but hopeful about hibernating, look forward to keeping on with that research and always happy to hear critiques/opinions on all this stuff. Enormously helpful.

Obviously brevity isn't my strong suit. Thanks for the opinions!

 

[K8E K]

Update:
She's dug a burrow about 2 ft down (her night box is bottomless for that purpose), she's definitely just holing up there. I think she's fine- she's active when she gets going, looks like she's actually sunning. If her favorite foods are offered they disappear quickly enough. I think she's just sneaky and it's made me nervous. Never known a shy russian before Thanks again for the input.

 

[Tom]

When the time comes, russians hibernate best at around 39-40 F. At 50, they will be too active and burn through their energy and water reserves. 49-50 is good for DTs though.

 

[K8E K]

When the time comes, russians hibernate best at around 39-40 F. At 50, they will be too active and burn through their energy and water reserves. 49-50 is good for DTs though.

Oo, noted, thank you. I need to read the threads again. I'd anticipated hibernating her in the "basement" (it's really an old victorian root cellar, I think)- it might be too warm, I'm going to need to monitor it. I like it as an option because we occasionally have days even in January that are 70, but will average about 50; the cellar/basement doesn't heat up quite as much. I have an uninsulated shed backup plan, electric will just be more extension cord than not. The lowest we get around here is 30's. I have a lot to read in the next few months

 

[RosemaryDW]

I agree 50 degrees is too warm. My outdoor Russian stayed active until she got down to about 42 and then started getting antsy when we warmed her up to 44 in the Spring.

I'd be nervous keeping mine outside in the the thirties. A little too close to the possibility of freezing.

Not quite as cool as where you are but we are in Southern California and the temperatures here are as variable as yours. Our garage is never cool enough. As a result, we keep her in a dorm fridge in the garage. Really quite easy. We have discussions on fridge hibernation on the forum but I found the most useful information on specific fridge setup here:http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/Refrigerator.htm

We also have a heated night box, based mostly on one of Tom's designs. She uses it between March and whenever we feel it's dry enough outside to open her outside burrow. In the Fall we close the burrow at the end of August and she uses the box until a few days before hibernation. When we find her trying to dig a new burrow, it's time to turn on the fridge!

 

[RosemaryDW]

@Tom, I feel October is a little too late to start the discussion for a first timer. It took us a week to get ours set up and naintaining a constant temperature (not easy in a small, cheap fridge). That was after several months of nervous research!

We were prepared to hibernate her a week before she was ready, which turned out to be October 29th last year.

 

[K8E K]

I agree 50 degrees is too warm. My Russian stayed active until she got down to about 42 and then started getting antsy when we warmed her up to 44 in the Spring.

I'd be nervous keeping mine outside in the the thirties. A little too close to the possibility of freezing.

Not quite as cool as where you are but we are in Southern California and the temperatures here are as variable as yours. Our garage is never cool enough. As a result, we kept her in a dorm fridge in the garage. Really quite easy. We have discussions on fridge hibernation on the forum but I found the most useful information on specific fridge setup here:http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/Refrigerator.htm

Thank you!! I was just thinking about a fridge set up- thanks for the recommendation on that particular thread. I will be sure I double check everything Russian specific (I have a bit more experience with DT and non-hibernating species, I feel like my brain keeps defaulting to DT and I have to re-read to make sure I'm not just going on auto-pilot) . Even though 30's are our "record", I definitely have seen some nights in the 30's around here in the past decade and wouldn't want a temperature situation I couldn't carefully monitor and control- I'm too nervous the first time around! I've started recording our cellar temps to see what the differential might be, it won't be very scientific but at least I have a bit more information. The main thing is that it can get wet here in the winter, so outdoors/unsheltered is not a choice, even if I had thought of that as an option to begin with. At this point I think it will either be a fridge or verifying the cellar stays appropriately cool. It's funny, you said "dorm fridge" and I was like, "oh! that's right! so small!".

 

[RosemaryDW]

The main thing is that it can get wet here in the winter, so outdoors/unsheltered is not a choice, even if I had thought of that as an option to begin with.

I feel the same. Our tortoise was an escapee and she burrowed down in our yard when were trying to find her owners the first year. She popped up in February during a warm snap and not knowing she was even there, we had to scramble to put some kind of warm box together.

If we had let her choose to let her hibernate in that spot again, she would have drowned. With that crazy rain we had, her burrow ended up completely flooded for weeks.

 

[Tom]

@Tom, I feel October is a little too late to start the discussion for a first timer. It took us a week to get ours set up and naintaining a constant temperature (not easy in a small, cheap fridge). That was after several months of nervous research!

We were prepared to hibernate her a week before she was ready, which turned out to be October 29th last year.

Okay. I usually don't do anything different with mine until November. Then I hibernate them Dec, Jan and Feb.

We can start talking about it any time you like.

 

[RosemaryDW]

Okay. I usually don't do anything different with mine until November. Then I hibernate them Dec, Jan and Feb.

Now that I think on it, I suppose yours grew up using a "different" clock, as they are captive bred. You have much more control over their environment than I have with mine.

I do wish there was an annual hibernation thread kicking off in early September-ish, for people considering it. Not a debate, just a "Here is what to buy/borrow and how to set it up." Followed by "Here is what to keep an eye on during hibernation itself." There is a existing hibernation thread on the forum that is good but a bit stale.

 

[Tom]

Now that I think on it, I suppose yours grew up using a "different" clock, as they are captive bred. You have much more control over their environment than I have with mine.

I do wish there was an annual hibernation thread kicking off in early September-ish, for people considering it. Not a debate, just a "Here is what to buy/borrow and how to set it up." Followed by "Here is what to keep an eye on during hibernation itself." There is a existing hibernation thread on the forum that is good but a bit stale.

Are you talking about this thread?
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/looking-for-an-rt-hibernation-mentor.128790/


I lay out my strategy in post 19 on page 1.

 

[RosemaryDW]

Are you talking about this thread?
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/looking-for-an-rt-hibernation-mentor.128790/

I lay out my strategy in post 19 on page 1.

Yes that is the thread. The info is great and I referred to it often. But if you look at the structure, it's partially guidance, like yours, and partially comments from people who are hibernating for the first time. The thread also covers the full process from September through March--six months!

if you are brand new and just trying to figure out the first steps, jumping around a thread that long to find the pertinent info isn't easy. Example: I have to read eighteen posts to find your strategy.

Plus the thread isn't stickied. I found it but you know I love poking around ALL the threads!

Basically I am suggesting a similar thread, started new each year. Maybe it starts with several "guidance" posts from experienced users, then moves into newbie questions and the weekly updates from users. It gets stickied in the Russian forum (or general forum, frankly, it's not only Russians that hibernate). The next year we start over. The guidance posts can pretty much be copied over; it wouldn't have to be rewritten.

Or at least we sticky the old thread so it's more obvious.

 

[RosemaryDW]

Sorry for hijacking your thread @K8E K!

 

[K8E K]

Sorry for hijacking your thread @K8E K!

Oh, no, this is all great! It takes me a while to sort through info/comments as well so I think your suggestion would be really helpful. For instance, I totally came across more information on ideal temps that made my question redundant, it just took me a bit to get to it (originally the only guideline I could sort was "over 60", but I was still feeling insecure about my Russian's behavior at that temp). All fine, though, I tend to "accident" across other stuff I find useful/informative anyway