Reptile Products

[jpeck425]

I'm noticing a lot of concern amongst hobbyists about which brand is better on light bulbs, heat pads, commercial diets, etc...

I've been a pet supply sales rep for 23 yrs now and have represented all of the major brands. When choosing a UV light or a heat bulb it is important to remember that all of the major brands(Exo-Terra, ZooMed, Flukers, T-Rex, R-Zilla) all follow strict regulations on their products and are very similar in their specs. I think too much importance is being put on a specific brand and not on an understanding of all the factors that contribute to a tortoises longevity and health. The differences in the UVB output on any of these brands is too minimal to see any specific developmental changes in your tortoise. They are all of high quality. The differences in cost are mainly the result of what discount program a particular store is on. The life span of a particular bulb is not determined by the brand as much as how the bulb is handled during shipping and it's disturbance while lit. The less a bulb is moved while lit, the longer the filament will last.

As far as the foods, I do not believe in any commercial food as being adequate for all species. It wouldn't be logical for rainforest, temperate, grassland and desert species to all thrive on a single diet. Commercial diets should only be used as supplements alongside appropriate fresh foods.

The reptile hobby is still in it's infancy and knowledge is changing every year. It was once thought that pyramiding was a result of too much protien, but now it is understood that humidity plays an important role in proper development.

I guess my long-winded point is that it is more important to cover all of the requirements of lighting, humidity, heat, substrate, diet, etc...than to worry about which particular brand is more popular. I have covered several states in my work and have found particular brands are more popular depending on what the stores in that area push, which is a result of whose giving them a better discount or more store-use freebees.

For what it's worth

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Jeff: Your views are valuable and "valued!" I don't use the reptile bulbs because all of my animals are outside, but I remember reading about a scientific study comparing the output of the different brands of reptile bulbs. I didn't pay close attention because like I said, I don't use them, but it seems to me that the study showed there was quite a discrepancy among the different bulbs. And one in particular (don't remember the brand) caused eye damage in reptiles. Does anyone on the Forum remember this study and maybe speak better about it?

Yvonne

 

[jpeck425]

Hi Jeff: Your views are valuable and "valued!" I don't use the reptile bulbs because all of my animals are outside, but I remember reading about a scientific study comparing the output of the different brands of reptile bulbs. I didn't pay close attention because like I said, I don't use them, but it seems to me that the study showed there was quite a discrepancy among the different bulbs. And one in particular (don't remember the brand) caused eye damage in reptiles. Does anyone on the Forum remember this study and maybe speak better about it?

Yvonne

Hey Yvonne,
I remember the problem you refered to, it was with Energy Savers/ Coralife (now R-Zilla). If I remember right, the problem occured after the company changed hands and was resolved. They sold their bulbs for many years without the same problems. I just meant barring any unusual circumstances, the differences in the bulbs are minor.

Mostly over the years I've seen a lot of misinformation flowing throughout the industry and most of it was a result of someone's pocket getting stuffed. I used to see the same problems with the so called "Premium" dog foods. It can get nauseating. I have had the opportunity to try all of the major brands and have seen good results from all of them. What typically happens is a breeder or store is given free products to use and as long as they have no problems with them, their testimonial is "I've been keeping and breeding reptiles for X years and I use and recommend...". If you print that in a magazine or online it carries a lot of weight. As far as some of the "so called" independent testings, every company I have represented can produce testing results favoring their brand.

For years 5.0 or 5% UVB was considered to be the appropriate UVB level, then 7% for desert, then 8% and now 10%. I think many of these products are just too new to show results of long-term effects on generations. Many of the brands just keep copying each other to keep-up in sales. If Exo-Terra is successful with an item, ZooMed will produce it. If ZooMed is successful, Exo-Terra will come out with their variety. What I see behind the scenes is that many of the people creating these products have worked for several of these companies.

In the end, I think you will find favorable results with any of the products as long as you follow the recommended UVB, etc... for the individual species.

Thanks and my apologies if I am too long-winded. I spoke with someone really confused by a store today and it frustrated me, lol!

Be well

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Hi Jeff: Your views are valuable and "valued!" I don't use the reptile bulbs because all of my animals are outside, but I remember reading about a scientific study comparing the output of the different brands of reptile bulbs. I didn't pay close attention because like I said, I don't use them, but it seems to me that the study showed there was quite a discrepancy among the different bulbs. And one in particular (don't remember the brand) caused eye damage in reptiles. Does anyone on the Forum remember this study and maybe speak better about it?

Yvonne

Hey Yvonne,
I remember the problem you refered to, it was with Energy Savers/ Coralife (now R-Zilla). If I remember right, the problem occured after the company changed hands and was resolved. They sold their bulbs for many years without the same problems. I just meant barring any unusual circumstances, the differences in the bulbs are minor.

Mostly over the years I've seen a lot of misinformation flowing throughout the industry and most of it was a result of someone's pocket getting stuffed. I used to see the same problems with the so called "Premium" dog foods. It can get nauseating. I have had the opportunity to try all of the major brands and have seen good results from all of them. What typically happens is a breeder or store is given free products to use and as long as they have no problems with them, their testimonial is "I've been keeping and breeding reptiles for X years and I use and recommend...". If you print that in a magazine or online it carries a lot of weight. As far as some of the "so called" independent testings, every company I have represented can produce testing results favoring their brand.

For years 5.0 or 5% UVB was considered to be the appropriate UVB level, then 7% for desert, then 8% and now 10%. I think many of these products are just too new to show results of long-term effects on generations. Many of the brands just keep copying each other to keep-up in sales. If Exo-Terra is successful with an item, ZooMed will produce it. If ZooMed is successful, Exo-Terra will come out with their variety. What I see behind the scenes is that many of the people creating these products have worked for several of these companies.

In the end, I think you will find favorable results with any of the products as long as you follow the recommended UVB, etc... for the individual species.

Thanks and my apologies if I am too long-winded. I spoke with someone really confused by a store today and it frustrated me, lol!

Be well

Hey Jeff...what about some study recently that showed that the Reptisun 5.0 coil bulb was causing eye problems in reptiles? I was having problems with a group of desert tort hatchlings at the time I read that study and was using that particular bulb. I got rid of the bulb and the eye problems at the same time.
More recently I have a 3 yr old partially blind Sulcata who would have terrible flare ups periodically and the nictatans would swell up and be so inflamed I couldn't even see his eye ball. It hurt him so much he would drool and just rub those sore eyes on his tuff spiky legs. During the last flare up my Vet asked about his lighting and I told her he was under a Reptisun 10. fluorescent tube. She had me change to a regular incandescent 100 watt bulb and not treat his eyes at all, and in 2 days under the incandescent bulb his eyes totally cleared up and he hasn't had a flare up since. He's still blind in his left eye of course, but no more flare ups. If I had done that a couple of years ago I could have saved myself several thousand dollars in Vet bills. I am hesitant to use any Reptisun products now and someone just posted on another list that the Reptisun tubes don't put out much UVB anyway.
So it's confusing to me. I know what I saw with my own animals, but even tho I'm an experienced keeper I know next to nothing about UVB output or one brand verses another. I live in the rainy/frozen Northwest so my animals are kept inside for 6 or 7 months. UVB is important but like I just said most of the information out there is confusing to me and my own experience with Reptisun is scary. So just tell me what brand should I buy and make it easy for this blonde to understand...thanks, I'm pretty long winded too but that's called good communication...

 

[egyptiandan]

This is the best place to learn about bulbs. http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
They were the ones to get the 3 companys producing the bad bulbs to get them to change their bulbs.

Danny

 

[jpeck425]

Hi Jeff: Your views are valuable and "valued!" I don't use the reptile bulbs because all of my animals are outside, but I remember reading about a scientific study comparing the output of the different brands of reptile bulbs. I didn't pay close attention because like I said, I don't use them, but it seems to me that the study showed there was quite a discrepancy among the different bulbs. And one in particular (don't remember the brand) caused eye damage in reptiles. Does anyone on the Forum remember this study and maybe speak better about it?

Yvonne

Hey Yvonne,
I remember the problem you refered to, it was with Energy Savers/ Coralife (now R-Zilla). If I remember right, the problem occured after the company changed hands and was resolved. They sold their bulbs for many years without the same problems. I just meant barring any unusual circumstances, the differences in the bulbs are minor.

Mostly over the years I've seen a lot of misinformation flowing throughout the industry and most of it was a result of someone's pocket getting stuffed. I used to see the same problems with the so called "Premium" dog foods. It can get nauseating. I have had the opportunity to try all of the major brands and have seen good results from all of them. What typically happens is a breeder or store is given free products to use and as long as they have no problems with them, their testimonial is "I've been keeping and breeding reptiles for X years and I use and recommend...". If you print that in a magazine or online it carries a lot of weight. As far as some of the "so called" independent testings, every company I have represented can produce testing results favoring their brand.

For years 5.0 or 5% UVB was considered to be the appropriate UVB level, then 7% for desert, then 8% and now 10%. I think many of these products are just too new to show results of long-term effects on generations. Many of the brands just keep copying each other to keep-up in sales. If Exo-Terra is successful with an item, ZooMed will produce it. If ZooMed is successful, Exo-Terra will come out with their variety. What I see behind the scenes is that many of the people creating these products have worked for several of these companies.

In the end, I think you will find favorable results with any of the products as long as you follow the recommended UVB, etc... for the individual species.

Thanks and my apologies if I am too long-winded. I spoke with someone really confused by a store today and it frustrated me, lol!

Be well

Hey Jeff...what about some study recently that showed that the Reptisun 5.0 coil bulb was causing eye problems in reptiles? I was having problems with a group of desert tort hatchlings at the time I read that study and was using that particular bulb. I got rid of the bulb and the eye problems at the same time.
More recently I have a 3 yr old partially blind Sulcata who would have terrible flare ups periodically and the nictatans would swell up and be so inflamed I couldn't even see his eye ball. It hurt him so much he would drool and just rub those sore eyes on his tuff spiky legs. During the last flare up my Vet asked about his lighting and I told her he was under a Reptisun 10. fluorescent tube. She had me change to a regular incandescent 100 watt bulb and not treat his eyes at all, and in 2 days under the incandescent bulb his eyes totally cleared up and he hasn't had a flare up since. He's still blind in his left eye of course, but no more flare ups. If I had done that a couple of years ago I could have saved myself several thousand dollars in Vet bills. I am hesitant to use any Reptisun products now and someone just posted on another list that the Reptisun tubes don't put out much UVB anyway.
So it's confusing to me. I know what I saw with my own animals, but even tho I'm an experienced keeper I know next to nothing about UVB output or one brand verses another. I live in the rainy/frozen Northwest so my animals are kept inside for 6 or 7 months. UVB is important but like I just said most of the information out there is confusing to me and my own experience with Reptisun is scary. So just tell me what brand should I buy and make it easy for this blonde to understand...thanks, I'm pretty long winded too but that's called good communication...

I think the problem is that we are still learning about reptiles and for awhile companies were constantly approaching the "more is better" attitude with UVB. UV lighting is designed to mimic mid-day sun from the specific regions ex(5.0 for a humid rainforest environment). I honestly believe that UVB is important, but I think there needs to be a closer look into the lifestyle of the specific species. In most cases, desert animals are not always active during the mid-day sun. This would be the time that it is incredibly hot. Most desert species tend to be primarily active during the morning and evening hours. I think the 10.0 is a reasonable level of UVB for a desert species of reptile, but I am still not convinced that it needs an entire day's worth of exsposure to it. I think there is a balance that we are still trying to hit and I think that the use of timers and separating the heat and uv exposure is probably going to hit that balance better.

Different species have different UV requirements. Many species such as Forest hingebacks, Redfoots, Yellowfoots, Burmese Mountain tortoises inhabit the lush undergrowth and are not really exposed to high amounts of continous UV. Many grassland species seek shelter in scrub grasses and brush. they receive some higher exposures until the sun repositions, then they are shaded or filtered.

I know this can all be a bit confusing and I apologize for that. I am just an individual and my experiences and opinions do not rank any higher than anyone else's. I think the lighting choices we have available are workable and have never experienced any problems from their use. What I do is 5.0 or 5% UVB for temperate climate species, 10.0 for grassland and desert species and 2.0 for reclusive or deep forest species. The heat or basking lights are on for approx 10 hrs per day. The Fluorescent UV bulbs are on separate timers and come on for about 6 hours. All of my tortoises and box turtles have hide boxes or bark caves and can choose when to seek UV or heat exposure.

I agree with Yvonne and believe that the best situation is to have them outside, but I am also in a cold climate and have a short window for that opportunity. I know of some keepers whose tortoises free roam their house and only get exposure of filtered light through the windows. While I do not agree with this for several reasons, their tortoises remain beautiful and seemingly healthy. I had not seen the report for problems with the 5.0 coil bulb, so I don't have much insight on that. A lot would depend on exposure time or the type of animal. I've tried both linear fluorescent bulbs as well as coiled and haven't had any personal problems. In short, if any of my rambling have made any sense , limited exposure to UV is proven to be benefical, but prolonged exposure may not be. I think I might have confused people from my original point that is it more our use of these products than the manufacturer, that is more important. I think we have a tendency to overuse UV, vitamins, calcium, etc...

Well, if nothing else we had a bit of activity on the product forum, lol.
Be well and I'm sorry if I've made this more confusing

 

[Yvonne G]

It turns out that the study I was thinking about only concerned the coil bulb, not the tubes. Here's a link to the study if anyone is interested:

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor.htm

Jeff: I like the idea of only having the UV bulb on for a certain period during the day, and not on all day long. We (the collective "WE" as reptile keepers) have gotten into the habit of having one fixture with a light "on" all day long and one fixture with a light for night time. Its time to change our habit. Maggie sent me a picture a couple days ago of two of her indoor habitats that are sitting right next to each other. She recently had her son mount a neon fixture that is long enough to cover the two habitats. It hangs about 16" (I may be wrong, memory not what it used to be) above both habitats. Each habitat also has its own daylight fixture and night time fixture. This setup looks pretty good to me. If I can find the picture I'll post it.

Yvonne

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Hey Jeff...thanks so much for your explanation. I do think that your experience with reptiles and your day job elevate you passed the "just an individual and my experiences and opinions do not rank any higher than anyone else's" quote. Reptile husbandry changes so fast, it seems, that we all need as much information as we can collect in order to raise healthy animals.
Some of you may be too young to have heard this saying before 'telephone, telegraph and tella my sister'. <BEG>...I did have my son install a 42 inch long hood so that I could implement my new light plan, and it sounds like the only person it's new to is me. I have the tube light (UVB) go on at 07:30 and off at 13:00. A 100 watt incandescent light goes on at 13:00 and off at 20:00. I had already been researching my light/eye problems and someone else had pointed out that most of my desert species wouldn't be out in the hot mid-day sun. So I was gonna try my new lights schedule and here you say the same thing! Anyhow, I won't post a picture, I think we have all seen hanging fixtures...it hangs 17 inches above the substrate.
My Sulcata live in a heated shed at the back of my property and I use a Trex bulb for basking. Without going out there in the dark to look I think it's 250 watts. But they have a doggie door that I open everyday and both have been seen trying to graze thru the snow at various times. I'm not too concerned about UVB with them... So thanks again

 

[Isa]

Thanks for the info Jeff.
I really like the idea of turning off the UVB light in the afternoon. But with the Mercury vapor bulb, I cant put it on only a part of the day since my Hermann needs a hot side all day long (12 hours).

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Thanks for the info Jeff.
I really like the idea of turning off the UVB light in the afternoon. But with the Mercury vapor bulb, I cant put it on only a part of the day since my Hermann needs a hot side all day long (12 hours).

That's where the regular incandescent bulb comes in. It's hot and all my guys can be seen basking under it at various times...

 

[Isa]

Thanks for the info Jeff.
I really like the idea of turning off the UVB light in the afternoon. But with the Mercury vapor bulb, I cant put it on only a part of the day since my Hermann needs a hot side all day long (12 hours).

That's where the regular incandescent bulb comes in. It's hot and all my guys can be seen basking under it at various times...

Thanks Maggie
Is the regular incandescent bulb is like a basking light?

 

[Yvonne G]

A regular incandescent bulb is what you have in the light fixtures all over your house.

Yvonne

 

[Isa]

A regular incandescent bulb is what you have in the light fixtures all over your house.

Yvonne

Thanks Yvonne