Redfoots - Pairs & Groups

AMA904

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I was doing some research (as always) and was surprised to find that some people believe that Redfoots do well in pairs or groups. I've been under the impression for a while now that tortoises were solitary animals. I understand that there are always exceptions to the rule both good and bad.

My question is for those of you who have pairs or multiples of Redfoots/Cherryheads in the same enclosure, do you feel they do better in that setting or do you find they do just as well or better alone?
 

dmmj

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RF's do quite well in groups, as long as they have space, but 2 ar stillnot good. 3 or more, plus you are correct tortoises are solitary and do just fine (even better sometimes) alone.
 

kathyth

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As above, they do very well alone. Redfoots are one of the exceptions. They tend to get along quite well in groups.
 

Turtlepete

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Redfoots are one of the few "socialable" tortoises. They tend to march together, in a way thats pretty interesting to see. Sometimes they form trains and walk this way. My group interacts with each other all of the time. The hatchlings, as well, display a lot of interest with each other. To be totally honest I feel hatchlings do better in groups then singular. They have a way of learning from watching each other do things, as hard as it sounds to believe.
 

allegraf

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Also hatchlings do better with company. The competition seems to encourage them to eat and move more than when they are solo.
 

Tom

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I have yet to see anything that says redfoots hang out or congregate together in the wild, other than brief encounters for mating like any species, of course. In captivity, they tend to do just fine in groups. Be cautious however, as we are speaking about generalities here. There are exception. We recently had a member here who was told to separate her RF pair for aggression issues. She failed to do so and after about 6 weeks she posted asking what to do since her one RF bit the foot and tail off of the other one.

As Cap'n Awesome stated, a pair is still not a good idea, but groups are okay in this species most of the time.
 

N2TORTS

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all of these answers are very entertaining to say the least....
oops I mean interesting....


(ya Tom ....I like to talk ...;))
 

AMA904

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JD - What are your thoughts on the matter?

I've been told that redfoots do well in groups, but also do well in pairs if kept with the same sex. I was told that one exception seems to be male cherryheads which can be aggressive with each other (I was told this was not the case with the redfoots or northern to be more technical).
 

Turtlepete

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I have yet to see anything that says redfoots hang out or congregate together in the wild, other than brief encounters for mating like any species, of course. In captivity, they tend to do just fine in groups. Be cautious however, as we are speaking about generalities here. There are exception. We recently had a member here who was told to separate her RF pair for aggression issues. She failed to do so and after about 6 weeks she posted asking what to do since her one RF bit the foot and tail off of the other one.

As Cap'n Awesome stated, a pair is still not a good idea, but groups are okay in this species most of the time.

Actually, red foots are documented as having certain social behaviors in the wild. The author of the "Tortoiselibrary" who seems to be highly regarded here, has mentioned this as well. There are exceptions of aggressive tortoises, of course, but normally they get along quite well. I've kept them in groups, in pairs, etc....I have a friend near me that maintains a group of 34 together. No aggression, they do just fine. :)
 

christinaland128

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I have two reds and so far they get along well. They even follow each other to a second food location or the water dish. :D
 

Tom

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all of these answers are very entertaining to say the least....
oops I mean interesting....


(ya Tom ....I like to talk ...;))


C'mon Jeff. Spill the beans. Give us your insight please.
 

Madkins007

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Lots of field researchers have documented at least semi-social behaviors of red-footeds (and other species) in the wild*. Sharing shelters, scent trails, shared feeding, etc. True solitary species do not do this sort of thing, or at least they challenge each other when they come together.

(*- sources would include Moscovitz's dissertation, articles and books by the Vinkes and Vetters, etc.)

Lots of successful keepers have shared that their red-footeds do better in groups- but, as has been mentioned- you need to have adequate space for it- enough feeding stations, shelters, etc. (even if they end up sharing one.)
 

Bryan

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I currently house 2 male adults together and at one time housed 3 of them together. They got along well enough. At one point prior to that I had 5:1 together and again all was well. When I took out the 3 males and kept them by themselves and then later reintroduced the other 2 males all hell broke loose WWE style! I had to separate the 2 males and after that all was fine again. I guess it depends on the particular animals as to whether or not you'll have much of an issue. So in summary I would say that they do enjoy company unless they are getting bullied so really not much different than humans in that regard.
 

N2TORTS

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Well Tom......
It's comments like above, the debates that go overboard, the stabs and jabs and even gossip on other sites it gets quiet obvious we as humans are social ( ha ha ) people and have are own "clicky" little groups . Probably the most insecure too!
But since I'm an A**H*** "who likes to talk" :p ( BTW- I knew when you said it-weeks back- you were giving me chit- a tease-funny I don't remember crying about it , or have my little gang "lean on ya" ....LOL )
Here ya go ..........

Well my own input, questions and experience would start off like this ….
For the OP –
How much space are we talking about when keeping multiple torts (of any kind)?
Male to female ratio within your groups?
Housed animals or Outdoor year around?
Age when first introduced?
The Definition of “Social”
1. pertaining to, devoted to, or characterized by friendly companionship or relations: a social club.
2. seeking or enjoying the companionship of others; friendly; sociable; gregarious.
3. of, pertaining to, connected with, or suited to polite or fashionable society: a social event.
4. living or disposed to live in companionship with others or in a community, rather than in isolation:
5. of or pertaining to human society, especially as a body divided into classes according to status: social rank.

Books and Info Like This *DO NOT SET THE RULES in Herpetology
www.reptilesmagazine.com/Leopard-Tortoise-Care-And-Bree...
“For many years, it was included in the genus Geochelone, but it is now considered its own genus. ... Generally, about 150 square feet is suitable for one adult tortoise and an additional 75 square feet of area for each additional tortoise. <~~~Not bad- Not So Good Either (ever been to jail?)...So that’s 10 feet x 15 feet folks For One Tortoise!…..not a 55 gal aquarium.
Even though red-footed tortoise are medium-sized, they still need a large area or enclosure to roam in. Three square yards (2.7 square meters) per tortoise is recommended (Rundquist, 1994). <~~~Old Info
If a breeding group of five animals is housed indoors, their enclosure must be at least 15 square yards (13.5 square meters). Many breeders house their tortoises outside during the spring and summer, and bring the animals indoors during inclement weather and the fall and winter months” <~~~SAD To imagine this- 4-6 months indoors – that alone would drive me nuts and not make me very sociable !”
Are Tortoises -Reptiles in general sociable animals?

"Future research could explore the possibility that some reptiles are far more responsive to social cues than we expect.
"Our results also have obvious implications for the captive rearing of reptiles. These animals are commonly raised by zoos, private keepers and pet owners in social isolation, under the assumption that social cues are irrelevant to their development. Our results call that into question and suggest that for many reptiles, an environment rich in social interaction may provide important benefits for their wellbeing."
http://sydney.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=12914
The red-footed tortoise (Geochelone carbonaria) is a solitary, non-social species native to the tropical forests of Central and South America ( Do I personally think this is an accurate statement?....No -too many loop holes ….again what type of acreage are we talk evaluating ? What season was it? Was it a wet or dry year? ) . Individuals of this species spend most of their lives alone, and only really interact for the purpose of mating. Despite this, it is possible that these animals have the basic building blocks of gaze-sensitivity, and in the proper circumstances, might be able to develop gaze-following with sufficient learning.
http://scienceblogs.com/thoughtfulanimal/2010/11/15/tortoises-eyegaze/
In the plethora of research over the past few decades on the cognitive capabilities of various species, lizards, turtles and snakes have been left in the back of the class. Few scientists bothered to peer into the reptile mind, and those who did were largely unimpressed.
“Reptiles don’t really have great press,” said Gordon M. Burghardt, a comparative psychologist at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville. “Certainly in the past, people didn’t really think too much of their intelligence. They were thought of as instinct machines.” But now that is beginning to change, thanks to a growing interest in “coldblooded cognition” and recent studies revealing that reptile brains are not as primitive as we imagined. The research could not only redeem reptiles but also shed new light on cognitive evolution.
Social Cognition in a Non-Social Reptile? Gaze-Following in Red-Footed Tortoises
Gaze-following is the ability of an animal to orient its gaze to match that of another animal, and though this ability has been observed in mammals and birds, the phylogeny of gaze-following is still uncertain. Lots of evidence has been found for gaze-following in humans and non-human primates, and in dogs and dolphins, with somewhat more ambiguous evidence in other mammals and birds. But gaze-sensitivity – the ability of an animal to avoid the gaze of another animal – seems to be somewhat more common in the animal kingdom, having been observed in mammals and birds, and some reptiles and fish. Gaze-sensitivity may have evolved as an anti-predator defense; a theory known as the “evil eye hypothesis” suggests that the awareness of the gaze direction of a predator would help an animal know when it was safe to move about or come out of a hiding spot. Gaze-following requires gaze-sensitivity; indeed, gaze-following develops in human children after gaze-sensitivity. It therefore follows that gaze-following is cognitively more complex than gaze-sensitivity
For evidence of reptilian intelligence, one need look no further than the maze, a time-honored laboratory test.
Dr. Anna Wilkinson and her colleagues from the Cold-Blooded Cognition Lab wondered about the evolutionary history of gaze-sensitivity and gaze-following. One way to investigate this is by better accounting for gaze-sensitivity and gaze-following throughout the animal kingdom, beyond mammals and birds. Are these abilities also present in reptiles? If so, it could suggest that all amniotic species (birds, mammals, and reptiles) share them, and that it emerged quite a long time ago, in evolutionary terms.
Dr. Wilkinson, a comparative psychologist at the University of Lincoln in England, tested a female red-footed tortoise named Moses in the radial arm maze, which has eight spokes radiating out from a central platform. Moses’ task was to “solve” the maze as efficiently as possible: to snatch a piece of strawberry from the end of each arm without returning to one she had already visited.
“That requires quite a memory load because you have to remember where you’ve been,” Dr. Wilkinson said. Moses …. managed admirably, performing significantly better than if she had been choosing arms at random. Further investigation revealed that she was not using smell to find the treats. Instead, she seemed to be using external landmarks to navigate, just as mammals do.
Things became even more interesting when Dr. Wilkinson hung a black curtain around the maze, depriving Moses of the rich environmental cues that had surrounded her. The tortoise adopted a new navigational strategy, exploring the maze systematically by entering whatever arm was directly adjacent to the one she had just left. This approach is “an enormously great” way of solving the task, Dr. Wilkinson said, and a strategy rarely seen in mammals.
Navigational skills are important, but the research also hints at something even more impressive: behavioral flexibility, or the ability to alter one’s behavior as external circumstances change. This flexibility, which allows animals to take advantage of new environments or food sources, has been well documented in birds and primates, and scientists are now beginning to believe that it exists in reptiles, too.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/science/coldblooded-does-not-mean-stupid.html
 

N2TORTS

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PART II (limited space on first reply)

I would state that any given species mammal , bird, fish and reptile –that comes together or “Socializes” is for safety along with more viable breeding opportunities and food location. Does this mean “Social”?
The Komoda Dragon Lives, breeds and hunts in groups. Iguanas another species that comes to mind living in large groups.
On the other end of the spectrum …..some animals ‘Mate for Life”…..and will fight off an intruder- is this a social cue?
Within my own long term herds of Reds’ as well as just about any other tortoise I have worked with all live with a hierarchy.
Hierarchy: Apex Alpha Males, Alpha Females, Alpha Males, Beta Females, Beta Males
Apex alpha males
have the most power of all. Though not invincible, they are the most independent of any group. Mainly because of their size or aggressiveness aka: inherited genes. They will remain at the top position of the herd, of course breed with the most females available.
Alpha females have more influence over the herd and thus more influence on society than alpha males (excluding apex alpha males). Interestingly enough, in a sexual free market, females often have more power than males. Alpha females have great influence over the bulk of the remaining gals, and her message is well sent. The alpha females want power and many of them also want to mate with the apex and yes, once in a while, females are apex alpha females and chase other females.
It may surprise you that many non-apex alpha males are actually herd followers and take cues from both Apex Males and Females alike.
I could write pages upon pages…..of social “cues” witnessed within my herds, but they are restricted to a certain acreage so they must interact to survive, or fight. With these boundaries' set by man, One must make extra efforts is some cases to establish a harmony within the group. I have witnessed first hand many of times “social cues” ex: Male guarding female while she lays, pheromone scent trails, the ever so popular rubbing it’s butt/shell on an object.
My Male Hypo =very aggressive and if put on the Cherry side will go after anything and anybody-even the Alpha Cherry Male who is much larger. Is this an “inherited” nonsocial trait to be extra aggressive, since being the odd ball within the indigenous group and without this extra attitude would have least amount of chances to reproduce?
On a last note, the larger species we are familiar with Galaps and Aldabras we tend to call more sociable. Is that because of limited space and travel, living on an island? Would those gene lines become almost one social group on that particular island recognizing hire hierarchy of 100’s of years?
 

N2TORTS

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Also hatchlings do better with company. The competition seems to encourage them to eat and move more than when they are solo.
yes I agree ....also known as "Gaze Following"=Gaze-following is the ability of an animal to orient its gaze, actions Ex: eating , H20 and food locations to match that of another animal.
 
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