Raising a single Leopard vs. raising a group

[Neal]

Point 1: Neal, can you be 100% sure that your friendly Gpb do not have some Gpp blood in their history? I am 100% sure of the DNA of all the ones I observed at the breeders and of mine and yours Gpp.

I cannot be sure. From what I know, the imports of leopard tortoises actually from South Africa were significantly fewer in number than the tortoises imported from elsewhere. So I can make an arguement that it is not very probable. Even if they do have mixed DNA, what if they are friendly as a result of their "East African genetics"? It would be hard to answer that question based on yours and my observations alone so for purposes of drawing a mutual conclusion, I think we need to throw this point out.

Point 2: This now pertains to the individual bias that Neal spoke of. Neal most of your tortoise experience is with stars, Gpb and a lone female sulcata that was not very outgoing, according to your description. I propose that your frame of reference might be different than mine where most of my experience is with adult sulcatas, russians and CDTs. Your experience is mostly with species that most tortoise keepers would consider "shy". Most of my experience is with the three most aggressive outgoing bruisers of the tortoise world. I am not saying either of us is right or wrong or more or less experienced, I am saying that we have very different frames of reference for what constitutes "shy" or "outgoing".

I don't agree with our frames of reference being different, keep in mind that my experience is not limited to just what you described above. I have had many interactions with hundreds of sulcatas and desert tortoises throughout my life. And the bulk of my experience is with box turtles, which are known for having a lot of personality. But, I think what you implied is that what you and I consider to be interesting behavior is different, and I do agree with that. Agree to disagree lol.

Point 3: Mine and Neal's Gpp were all from the same source at the same time. However I got mine soon after hatching and Neal got his months later. Unfortunately the guy caring for Neal's tortoises in that interim did not do such a good job. The point that I am getting at is that Neal's Gpp, were not in the same state as my Gpp. They did not look the same and they did not behave the same, even though some of them are likely clutch mates. This last point helps prove both mine AND Neal's points. On one hand, Neal's Gpp were much more subdued do to their history, so I say they are not representative of the typical outgoing Gpp that I have seen. On the other hand this would also prove Neal's point that upbringing and how the tortoises are interacted with has an effect on personality.

Yes, solid point and I have mentioned this in other places where this topic has come up and this is partially why I feel I can't trust my own observations. I would like another stab at some more "fresh" Spp someday. But, I still think my group is a fair enough representation for what I have concluded so far considering all the other variables we have discussed.

Likewise, I have no doubt that generalities within the various species also exist. Sulcatas that follow people around like puppies and Indian stars that don't, being two common examples. Can there be a shy sulcata or curious star? Absolutely! But to borrow another poster's phrase "The exception proves the rule."

My disagreement is with the rule. I do understand that it is just a matter of opinion, but I have observed enough "exceptions" to conclude that the generalities do not fairly represent the species or variants. I am glad this thread was brought up as it brings to light another variable in this larger debate.

I apologize that this post is not in direct relation to your questions Team Gomberg. I do think it is a useful discussion and it still does relate to the thread, just not directly. Hope you don't mind.

 

[dar64]

I hope no one gets upset with my asking but does anyone have or know of anyone who has a juvenille or larger tortoise 6 inches or larger that they would like to place /sell ? I'm in Arizona. I'm having trouble finding that size and can't spend a fortune on an adult. Mine is a male and is 8 inches. Please contact me privately

 

[wellington]

Neal, the info being given is still very helpful to our questions. Not as closely related as we want to see, but still does shed some light on the bigger picture. I can't speak for Heather, but it's all good. The biggest thing, I and probably Heather don't want is a big debate, that goes bad or just opinions, without actual observance. I don't think there can really be a bad or wrong answer, you see what you see. So far, good stuff and very interesting. Nice to know my Tatum isn't so abnormal

 

[Neal]

Ok. Again, most of the stronger antagonists have moved on. Tom and I are cordial so no need to worry about things exploding.

 

[Tom]

The biggest thing, I and probably Heather don't want is a big debate, that goes bad or just opinions, without actual observance.

This thread will not derail. There is no animosity or disrespect among this group. We are all friends discussing tortoises.

---

Hi five Neal. We posted at the same time!

 

[dds7155]

I have enjoyed this thread,,, really the only way the people(me) that knows no one with tortoises ,can learn this,, so keep it up,

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Neal, the info being given is still very helpful to our questions. Not as closely related as we want to see, but still does shed some light on the bigger picture. I can't speak for Heather, but it's all good. The biggest thing, I and probably Heather don't want is a big debate, that goes bad or just opinions, without actual observance. I don't think there can really be a bad or wrong answer, you see what you see. So far, good stuff and very interesting. Nice to know my Tatum isn't so abnormal

Thanks Barb. You are the co-OP since its a thread you technically wanted to start LOL

But in all seriousness, Barb you explained it pretty well. I do appreciate Neal chiming in. You have great info to share, thanks man.

I never knew there was a heated debate in the past. Once that was mentioned I wanted to ask some specific questions to keep it from derailing out of control.

I have another hatchling right now that is being raised alone in a closed chamber. I'll be curious to see how "she" develops being raised alone. In the future I hope to raise a group of babies to see those dynamics as well.

 

[ulkal]

I have enjoyed this thread,,, really the only way the people(me) that knows no one with tortoises ,can learn this,, so keep it up,

Agreed . Knowing so little for sure, you can only rely on everyones observations (and interpretations). And its fun to discuss them. A matter of interpretation/opinion, people prob will always disagree in stuff like that. Hopefully some more people will share their experience

 

[ben awes]

I find this thread fascinating but I'm not sure we are any closer to the truth! lol! And, I don't think I have anything new to add. I have raised my adults Gpp from hatchlings - my female I got from Jeff Price and my male from Richard Fife. They were goth convinced that they were pure Gpp (though I think Richard does not really believe there is a difference anymore), but only the torts really know. I have not raised Gpb, though I did have a juvenile for several years. I have been breeding for several years, but have not raised any of them beyond two and half years. Basically, compared to many of you, I've got squat to add to the conversation!

I consider my Gpp fairly outgoing, though it can really depend on the day. Most of the time they go about their business when I am around and do not get startled. They come to check me out first to see what I am up to or if I have food. My only Gpb was a male and was very aggressive and so seemed outgoing. My only real observable behavior is between male and famale Gpp. My female was alone for the first two years, then I added a Gpb male before I knew he was a Gpb, I sold him after a year and got a new Gbb hatchling that turned out to be male. I have no idea if environment impacts personality, though I would be shocked if it did not. What animal is not impacted by environment? I suppose the lower you go on the intelligence scale the less impact environment has? Where do torts rank? At the same time I have two sons and they have been raised in the same environment and they are completely different in personality and level of outgoingness - so genetics plays a huge role too.

That's all I got!
Ben

Barb (Wellington) and I were chatting recently about our GPB Leopard's personalities. We noticed some similarities and we're curious to see if anyone else would share their input.

Both of us raised a single Leopard tortoise. Her Tatum is 2+ years and my Levi is almost 2. They are similar in personality from what we discussed. Not too active. Indifferent to our company. They don't even utilize their entire outdoor yard.

Both of us also have a pair of Leopards that have been raised together to compare to. She has spent a month babysitting some little guys and I adopted a pair of yearlings this past summer. We noticed that the ones raised together have similarities, too. These guys are super active, all over the place, alert and more personable.

Now my adopted pair is housed with Levi, the one who was raised alone. This trio has no problems being together. They eat, bask and live a fantastic tortoise life. BUT I see huge differences in their personalities. Levi is still very laid back and doesn't even explore the whole yard. He was always this way and is still exactly the same as he was before the new additions. The 2 adopted yearlings have just been so different. From day 1 they are all over the place, all the time. (Which I love, not complaining at all!) I just always figured it was a "different" personality thing. After talking with Barb and hearing that she has the same observations from her "raised solo" leopard Tatum and the "raised with company" babies it made us wonder if raising them with/ without company impacted their personality?

What do you guys think?

If you have a single leopard, what is he like?
If you have a group of leopards, what are they like?

Barb, chime in and help me explain what we were talking about

 

[Hallbomber]

I have a pair of two, one being 2 1/2 and another being 2 years old. They are up and at em at around 8am, grazing, eating everything in sight, and always very active until late afternoon when they get tired. They are also very sociable. They were raised together since they were about 5-6 months old.

 

[wellington]

I have a pair of two, one being 2 1/2 and another being 2 years old. They are up and at em at around 8am, grazing, eating everything in sight, and always very active until late afternoon when they get tired. They are also very sociable. They were raised together since they were about 5-6 months old.

Yours are GPB correct?

 

[Hallbomber]

My two are definitely hybrids.