Questions about Hingeback Care

[Nhealylley]

As some of you may know my sister and I have two Arfican Hingeback tortoises. I have gone onto a lot of websites about the species and their care, but all of them seem to say different things about one topic or another, so I am in looking for some input and advice from experienced tortoise owners. Thanks in advance to anyone who helps!

Health Concerns

Respiratory Problems- Ever since I got my two Hingebacks one or both of them on occasion (on and off again) seem to have some sort of respiratory problem. Their breath, especially with Marble, almost to whistles when they breathe. I've tried soaking them in very warm water, raising the humidity in their cages and I have even taken the to a vet who is supposed to specialize in exotic pets, like reptiles. Unfortunately he seemed to know next to nothing about Hinegbacks and had to look them up on the Internet, just to find out what they were. The vet declared both of them in good health or at least fairly good health upon examination and didn't seem to notice the breathing problem. How can I cure this problem, whatever it is?

Marble's Shell- My one tortoise, Marble has these cuts on either side of his shell. At first I had no idea how he possibly could have gotten these, but now I am beginning to think that it was a result of my other Hingeback, Rocky attempting to mate with him. Rocky would seem to claw at him right at the spot where Marble's injuries are now in an attempt to hold Marble in place. I realize now that I should never have kept two male tortoises in the same enclosure and regret it entirely, so please don't yell at me for it. The purpose of this thread is for me to receive help and advice regarding the care and well-being of my tortoises and not to criticize me about previous mistakes I made that can't be fixed now. During the examination at the vet's (that I mentioned before) the vet prescribed a disinfectant to prevent Marble's shell injuries from becoming infected. After the injuries only got worse, I stupidly took Marble back to the vet's and the vet prescribed an antibiotic that was administered through a shot to the leg, which didn't effect the injuries at all and apparently caused Marble stress because he stopped eating until I stopped the shots. Since then, I haven't taken Marble or Rocky back to the vet's office nor have I put them back in the same enclosure. Marble's injuries seem to have gotten a little better but have not completely healed. How worried should I be? Did Rocky's attempts to mate with Marble or something else cause the injuries? What is there for me to do?

Pictures of Marble's Shell:

Left Shell Injury:

Right Shell Injury:

Rocky's Neck and Head- My one tortoise, Rocky, has these scab-like spots, one on the top of his head and the other farther down on his neck. What do you think these could be, what cause them, and what should I do about them?

Pictures of Rocky's Neck and Head:

Sorry for the blurry photos, Rocky refused to stay still.

Diet

As I've mentioned before, I have researched African Hingeback tortoises online, including their diet in captivity, but, the information differs from website to website and is inconsistent.

I know that Hingebacks are omnivorous and need animal matter, such as earthworms (which I currently feed my two) in their diet. I also know that variety is important, so they need a mix of fruits and vegetables as well as animal matter. Here is where things get sketchy. I am very unsure of the percentages for their diet and overall the plant matter I should be feeding them. While some sites list bananas, tomatoes, peaches, mushrooms, lettuce, melon and oranges, others differ with a list that includes kale, grasses, timothy hay, carrots, squash and tomatoes. Some sites also have zucchini, cucumber, red/green sweet peppers, and pumpkin as suggested foods. Many sites also suggested giving a small amount of "high-quality low-fat dog food", but I am too nervous to feed mine any as I am worried it would damage their liver and kidneys. Many of the sites stress the importance of limiting fruits in the diet, is this extremely important, because one of my tortoises, Rocky won't touch greens and vegetables (or rarely does), but loves fruits. I've tried to only feed him leafy greens and other vegetables, but then he doesn't really eat, which worries me. My other tortoise, Marble, is addicted to eating earthworms and won't eat that much fruit or vegetables even when that is all I feed him. One more question regarding diet, are certain fruits, such as blueberries and grapes harmful to African Hingeback tortoises?

Soaking and Water Consumption

I know that soaking hingebacks is an important part of caring for them and I try to soak my hingebacks at least twice a week in warm water that doesn't rise above their mouth and nostrils. How often should I be soaking my hingebacks and how deep should the water be?

My hingebacks must be drinking water if they have survived this long but I've never really seen my hingebacks drink any water. They do have a water dish in each of their cages, but again I haven't really seen them drink from it. Should I be worried about this? Is there anything I can do to make sure they are getting enough water?

Lighting

Most websites say that full spectrum lighting can be beneficial but hingebacks dislike bright light and I know this fact is true from experience with my two hingebacks. In the summer time their cage is usually around 80-85 (sometimes it gets into the upper 80s) because I don't use air conditioning in my house. I know that this is the ideal temperature range for hingebacks and since I don't want to make their cage too warm, I don't use any type of light in the summer, but I do take them outside to be exposed to sunlight as much as I can, at least twice a week, in the summer time when it is warm enough. In the winter I use a light in the day and turn it off at night to simulate a natural day and night cycle (I have a heating pad at night) and to keep the cage warm. Am I doing the right thing as far as lighting for hingebacks goes?

Miscellaneous Questions

-I know this is a crude, gross question to ask, but (how should I say this?) what color should the urine be?

-This isn't important, but I was just curious, is there anyway to tell age?

-I know that African Hingebacks require a high humidity level, so I use cypress mulch to retain humidity, but should the mulch be wet or dry? I know wet bedding can lead to shell rot, so I wasn't sure as to how their substrate should be maintained.

-Are you supposed to trim your tortoises' nails because I've noticed that the nails on my two get extremely long and sometimes even fall off?

-Overall do Marble and Rocky look healthy (besides Marble's shell injuries)?

Marble:

Rocky:

Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

 

[Yvonne G]

I don't know anything about hingeback tortoises, so I'm going to defer to the more knowledgeable folks here on the forum...but I was wondering: Are the injuries right at the spot where the little hinge is?

 

[egyptiandan]

The breathing you hear is just fine. They do sometimes whistle and make noise while breathing. As long as their nose isn't running or blocked, they are fine.
The hinge doesn't look to bad and a topical triple antibiotic should clear that up just fine.
The spot on the neck probably happened with the edge of the shell pressing against his neck when climbing a wall of the container. It looks like it's healing fine and you don't need to do anything for that.
You don't have to limit fruit for a Hingeback. Your list of fruits and vegetables is fine other than not feeding bananas that often and I wouldn't think they would eat much grass or hay. You may want to try to add some Mazuri to their diet.
As long as you have a water dish and soak once or twice a week, your fine.
I'd go without any lights at all, even in the winter. You can use a ceramic heat emitter to provide heat during the day in the winter.
Urine is usually clear or brownish.
No way to tell age.
The very top layer should be dry, but underneath should be damp.
The nails shouldn't fall off. If they are, that means there is a nail bed infection going on and should be looked into.
They look fine to me.
Danny

 

[Redfoot NERD]

The less you handle them the better it will be...... quit fussing over them!

You have a K. homeona and a K. erosa whose territory do overlap so there's no concern with that.

These dudes are African "box-turtles".. which means - pile up the leaves over at least half the enclosure and spray them every day to keep the surface of the leaves damp. Provide as many water/soak dishes that you can that will fill up the other half of the enclosure. Do not 'force-soak' them.. just more stress that they don't need.

This is the outdoor enclosure my 'erosa live in - http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-17140.html - be sure to study this concept.. they live IN a deep rain forest where the temps seldom reach mid 80's. There are several pairs in that enclosure and the only time I see them is early evening when the sun is out of site and the temps begin to drop.. which is when they are fed. I have seen them out cruising around well after dark in the cool of the night.. eating and breeding [ had to use a flashlight ] in the light of the moon!

You have true forest tortoises which need their privacy and don't need to be 'handled' at all.

The indoor enclosure is being re-vamped but is what was described above.

Their STAPLE diet is 'cooked' sweet potato.. melon.. with mushrooms at least 4 days a week. Mine have not seemed to have any interest in any greens or veggies. Fruit IS a big part of their diet.. and big fat juicy nightcrawlers............ watch your fingers ( once a week if you can )!

And NO lights are needed except a very dim spot light over their eating area.. as far away from their leaf pile as possible.

Keep us posted...

NERD

 

[Nhealylley]

emysemys- I think the injuries are on the hinge, but I'm not completely positive.


egyptiandan- Thank you so much for the help! That answers a lot of my questions and I'm glad to hear that my two tortoises are better off then I thought they were.

---

Redfoot NERD- Again, thank you so much for your help. I love your outdoor enclosure! I wish I could have one like that but unfortunately the winters are way too cold and snowy here to keep tropical tortoises outside. Also, sorry about fussing over them, I just can't help worrying about them. :shy:

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I just can't help worrying about them.

As a forest hingeback tortoise keeper you must leave them alone or you will make it worse.

Our responsibility as tortoise keepers is to provide an environment as close to 'normal' for them as possible.

The Kinixys group.. especially 'homes / erosa' are really the most unusual [ commonly available ] tortoises these days - their care breaks all of the rules and they have 'habits/looks' that fringe on bizarre! So that "hinge" you see is normal appearing.

Very little is known about the .erosa and there is only a handful of breeders [ at best ] that has even hatched them here in the states.

It is always a good idea to have an outdoor enclosure as much as you can.. regardless the length of your winters. From July '09 thru present mine have been outdoors about half the time enjoying the 'fresh air'.

NERD

 

[Kristina]

The "cuts" on the area around the hinge are most likely caused by one tortoise dominating the other. When males mount each other, it is one male showing the other male who is boss, and they can damage the soft tissue of the hinge with their front claws. You may have to separate them.

 

[Jacqui]

Overall they both look just great!

I have a Bell's who when we were given her, she was wheezing. I quickly learned with her, that the wheeze was an indicator she was under stress (such as getting ready to lay eggs). So for her (and I bet yours), it's a natural thing.

I think it's correct believing the cutting appearance at the hinge is from the other tortoise. Also you were quick to realize that often being given an antibiotic shot does indeed cause tortoises to go off food.

I agree with Danny on the neck scabs.

With the diet, once more your correct. I too have never saw where it is listed a percentage they should be getting. I think we just don't know enough about their needs yet

. My fist basic diet belief is to do what ever it takes to get them eating. Once eating then work toward a more balanced and varied diet. Hingebacks can be really bad for picking one food and just wanting it, which isn't ideal. I also won't do the "tough love" feeding method where I won't feed them any snacks (worms or fruit in your tortoises cases) until they eat their "good stuff". Keeping a hingeback eating is the most important thing period. Work on improving the diet, but don't stress on it.

Marble loves his earthworms which is fine. I love feeding worms because you can sneak added things on them, such as calcium, vitamins, even some dried, powered greens. When you try to feed Rocky things other then fruits, are you mixing them in with some fruit either smeared on them or diced up good to sorta coat the nonfruits? That tends to help.

I would say overall, my hingebacks are poor eaters of their greens. I do have one Bell male who loves greens, but all the rest are picky on eating it. My Homes and Erosas do love their hibiscus and dandelion blooms tho. I do try to go with fruits that have as much food value as possible. Terry has sweet taters as a staple, to me they are only feed a couple of times a month. So see even in here we have a lot of difference of opinions.

This is a shot of part of my newest Homes enclosures. As you can see, this gets a fair amount of sunshine patching. On this side, it's early afternoon to evening for it to get the sun.

For Terry (Nerd) he said about his Erosa..."the only time I see them is early evening when the sun is out of site". As you can see in the following two pictures my Homes are out earlier in the afternoon roaming, eating, and breeding.

These next two pictures are of two of my Erosa hingebacks. In this first picture, the Erosa has just gotten off of that half log. What you can't see, is there is a UV light right above that log. It was just turned off, which is why the tortoise has moved on after spending some time basking under the UV light. It;s only offered for a few short hours.

This shows two of them scrambling to get as close to the light as possible, when the shop light came on. It's not for heat, that is offered in another spot. They wanted light.

I will agree that both the Homes and Erosa are not high light users generally, but I still think you should offer it when possible and let them decide if they want it or not.I admit, I play around with my lights to see what each group of tortoises find to be more in their want and needs. I do have many who get no added lighting during the inside cold months. I am also not saying to use the same high output lights you might offer to something like a Leopard tortoise. So if you have the lights already, experiment and see what your prefer.

I am surprised you haven't saw either of your hingebacks soaking, as that's a well loved activity by all of mine. Very strange.

I try to leave my hingbacks alone and untouched as much as possible. This would be especially true with any shy ones. Your two seem to be very much at ease with human interaction. The two Erosa in the above pictures are like that too. Very hard to take their pictures because when they see me, they come running. I have a few Homes that are out going too and would not be stressed by handling either. So it would seem your okay to keep handling your two in my opinion.

 

[Nhealylley]

Redfoot NERD- I apologize again, I am now handling them less but there are times when I have to handle them. (for example: I have to pick them up to take them outside since I don't have a permanent outside enclosure for them.

kyryah- I never thought about it that way but I wasn't sure if he was actually trying to mate with Marble since Rocky's tail was out.

Jacqui- Thanks so much for the advice, Jacqui! Again, this helps me so much. Also, thanks for your opinion on the handling subject. I didn't think handling them was that bad since it made them less shy and now they seem more willing to eat. And yes, I mix fruit in with the greens for Rocky's food. Also, you have some very cute tortoises and a nice outdoor enclosure.

 

[Jacqui]

Thank you for the nice comments. It helps that your two are long term captives, most fresh caught wilds have a lower ability to take handling.

I keep wanting to ask, are these the two listed on Kingsnake awhile back?

 

[Nhealylley]

I have no idea what 'Kingsnake' is, so I'm guessing there not the two you refer to.

 

[Kristina]

LOL.

www.kingsnake.com

Classifieds

Jacqui, I have to dig through some things, but somewhere I have a study on the stomach contents of wild K. erosa. I'll post it in a separate thread when I find it.