Pyramiding isn’t the worst thing when looking at Giant tortoises

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Pyramiding shells isn’t the worst thing you will find when looking at Giant tortoises.
I see so many topic’s on pyramiding and I certainly understand the concern.
But what often goes unnoticed are all the leg problems you can have in Giant tortoises.
Giant tortoise can have splayed legs (rear legs that flair out instead of being directly under the animal.)
When we see Galapagos and Aldabra tortoise that are old and were not raised in this country you always see an animal that has well developed back legs but unfortunately F2 or second generation animals are very pone to having abnormal legs.

When the animal stands up high look from the back at the position of the rear legs,
The pattern looks more like an H then an upside down V you can also look at the pads on their rear feet, if their wearing on the sides of their feet their back legs are splayed. An animal that walks normally will put the entire pad on the ground not just the side.

The two major factors I believe that caused this condition are, lack of proper diet especial low calcium content or calcium phosphorus ratio, and poor exercise.
When raising Giant tortoises it is important to give them a terrain to navigate, the biggest mistake people make is trying to raise these animals in a fish tank or terrarium for the first couple of years, by this time there could be a lot of damage done. Another mistake is keeping the pen too small, these giants are active and because of their growth rate they should be doing a lot of walking to develop strong muscles and bones. If your pen size is too small and uninteresting you are not
encouraging exercise

You can see in the following image a Galapagos that has slightly splayed legs, draw a line from the middle of her pad on her foot straight through the leg now do the same on the other leg, you will notice that the lines intersect about half way up her shell. Also notice that her hips appear too small for her shell.
The legs actually start from a smaller center point.
The animal has to place her feet down just under the outside of her shell, this causes the ”upside down V” appearance.
Elizabeth Rear (640x480).jpg


Now notice on the next three images how the back legs are seem to come from a much wider hip formation.
This is much closer to an H formation. Also notice how the pads of the feet sit flat on the ground.
P1030139 (640x480).jpg
P1030140 (640x480).jpg
P1030143 (640x480).jpg

We all like nice smooth shells, but don’t overlook proper hip and leg growth.
If you’re buying an animal that is a few years old, how and where that animal was raised is important.

I will post a new topic soon and show some of the Tortoise I have raised over the last 30 years that have perfectly smooth shells and perfect hips.

Sam Pascucci
www.FloridaIguana.com
 
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Yellow Turtle

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RE: Pyramiding shells

Pyramiding shells isn’t the worst thing you will find when looking at Giant tortoises.
I see so many topic’s on pyramiding and I certainly understand the concern.
But what often goes unnoticed are all the leg problems you can have in Giant tortoises.
Giant tortoise can have splayed legs (rear legs that flair out instead of being directly under the animal.)
When we see Galapagos and Aldabra tortoise that are old and were not raised in this country you always see an animal that has well developed back legs but unfortunately F2 or second generation animals are very pone to having abnormal legs.

When the animal stands up high look from the back at the position of the rear legs,
The pattern looks more like an H then an upside down V you can also look at the pads on their rear feet, if their wearing on the sides of their feet their back legs are splayed. An animal that walks normally will put the entire pad on the ground not just the side.

The two major factors I believe that caused this condition are, lack of proper diet especial low calcium content or calcium phosphorus ratio, and poor exercise.
When raising Giant tortoises it is important to give them a terrain to navigate, the biggest mistake people make is trying to raise these animals in a fish tank or terrarium for the first couple of years, by this time there could be a lot of damage done. Another mistake is keeping the pen too small, these giants are active and because of their growth rate they should be doing a lot of walking to develop strong muscles and bones. If your pen size is too small and uninteresting you are not
encouraging exercise

You can see in the following image a Galapagos that has slightly splayed legs, draw a line from the middle of her pad on her foot straight through the leg now do the same on the other leg, you will notice that the lines intersect about half way up her shell. Also notice that her hips appear too small for her shell.
The legs actually start from a smaller center point.
The animal has to place her feet down just under the outside of her shell, this causes the ”upside down V” appearance.



Now notice on the next three images how the back legs are seem to come from a much wider hip formation.
This is much closer to an H formation. Also notice how the pads of the feet sit flat on the ground.




We all like nice smooth shells, but don’t overlook proper hip and leg growth.
If you’re buying an animal that is a few years old, how and where that animal was raised is important.

I will post a new topic soon and show some of the Tortoise I have raised over the last 30 years that have perfectly smooth shells and perfect hips.

Sam Pascucci
www.FloridaIguana.com

Thanks Sam, I like this new information. I certainly would like to read more from experienced people like you, especially on this species.
 

CtTortoiseMom

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Pyramiding shells isn’t the worst thing you will find when looking at Giant tortoises

Thanks, the pictures were very helpfull. You said that you see this with Aldab's and Galap's have you ever seen this happen to Sulcata's?
 

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Pyramiding shells isn’t the worst thing you will find when looking at Giant tortoises

I completely agree. A significant number of young Aldabras suffer from this. We have typically attributed it to poor mineral status and too small and unstimulating of an enclosure.
 

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Great thread I love learning and this deffinitly opened my eyes when buying a tortoise that is a couple years old. Do you have a thread started with the ideal enclosure set up that would be "interesting" enough to get them moving?
 

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Sorry I messed up the post

Sorry all for the double post, this is only my second post and I have managed to mess it up.
First it wouldn’t post, then when it did post the images are only thumb nails, I thought with a 640 size they would be big don’t know what went wrong.

Sam Pascucci
 

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RE: Pyramiding isn’t the worst thing for Giant tortoises

CtTortoiseMom said:
Thanks, the pictures were very helpfull. You said that you see this with Aldab's and Galap's have you ever seen this happen to Sulcata's?

I have not seen this exact condition in smaller tortoises.
Not that I don’t believe it is possible, but I think what really promotes this condition in these large animals is the speed at which they grow, and the weight they obtain.

You do see similar problems in spurs and leopards and other smaller animals but those conditions are much closer to typical metabolic bone disease problems.
With MBD in these smaller species you can see the typical shell deformity’s along with other bone and structural deformity’s, but in Galapagos and Aldabras, you can have near perfect looking shells, yet very poor leg structure. This is probably because the major contributing factor to the condition is lack of exercise.
Which I most often caused by cage size and stimulation and secondarily diet.

I have also seen animals which displayed the condition but were able to grow out of it with proper care (if caught early enough)
 

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Rover15 said:
Great thread I love learning and this deffinitly opened my eyes when buying a tortoise that is a couple years old. Do you have a thread started with the ideal enclosure set up that would be "interesting" enough to get them moving?

Cage size can be tricky and all of my experience is dealing with outdoor pens. That is because my farm is in South Florida.
Let me try to answer this by way of example. If you had a 7” Aldabra I would not put it in a pen 20’x20’ that pen is too big and I have seen just as much problems making pens too big for rearing young animals. I would like to see something at least 4’x8’ to as large as 6’x10’
Pen ornaments like Trees, rocks, and logs give some ground diversity and set up blind areas for them to explore. Keep in mind having things to climb over is great exercise but also can be very dangerous if they flip in the sun. also one of the most stimulating things they can have, is a cage mate or mates.
But I don’t like mixing different species and I don’t like mixing animals that are very different in size.
 

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A heads-up from the field: One of our tagged Aldabra tortoises, a large male, has walked more than 55 km since he was tagged late January last year, until November. That's about 5.5 km per month, on average. Over ground that is sometimes very tough to navigate. I will try to have a look at the hind leg of wild Aldabrans when I'm back there, and let you know.
 

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Rover15 said:
Great thread I love learning and this deffinitly opened my eyes when buying a tortoise that is a couple years old. Do you have a thread started with the ideal enclosure set up that would be "interesting" enough to get them moving?

Cage size can be tricky and all of my experience is dealing with outdoor pens. That is because my farm is in South Florida.
Let me try to answer this by way of example. If you had a 7” Aldabra I would not put it in a pen 20’x20’ that pen is too big and I have seen just as much problems making pens too big for rearing young animals. I would like to see something at least 4’x8’ to as large as 6’x10’
Pen ornaments like Trees, rocks, and logs give some ground diversity and set up blind areas for them to explore. Keep in mind having things to climb over is great exercise but also can be very dangerous if they flip in the sun. also one of the most stimulating things they can have, is a cage mate or mates.
But I don’t like mixing different species and I don’t like mixing animals that are very different in size.

Mixing species I understand is a no no however you read a lot on this forum that tortoises are solatery animals and DO NOT need a "buddy" or "friend" now they do mention if you feel the need to add this "cage mates" that you go with a trio 1male 2females or other combenations. If you don't mind me asking why do you feel a cage mate(s) would help stimulate when most say it would just cause problems? I'm only curious in your point of view.

Here is my current setup for my almost 4" yellow foot

First half with my slate rock for feeding also has my CHE above and you can kind of see a hide in the bottom right corner

245elb5.jpg


Here is the second half with live plants

2u93445.jpg


I'm always worried about tipping this is why I kept my rocks level instead of a pile to climb over

It is in a 36L"x18W"x15H" I'm working on building a tort table I started with a 3'x3' layout but I want to try and go bigger. But what is your opinion as far as my set up goes?

P.s. I use tinypic.com to upload my pictures
 

RedfootsRule

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I completely agree about cage mates. Now, of course, some species you must be careful, but with the ones that get along together...They play. I've seen countless times tortoises rub noses, walk in formation, etc. etc. They ARE social in captivity, regardless of how they are in the wild. I disagree with any of those out there that make cage mates out to be some abhorrent thing, and the owners as selfish because a cage mate is "only for them". They learn from each other...One tortoise figures something out, the others follow suit. There was actually a kind of psychological experiment of this done on red foots...Something about the tortoises finding their way through a wire maze to food. Only a few tortoises were successful, but they found that if the unsuccessful tortoises watched the successful tortoise do it, the success rate was near 100%. Very interesting....
...And I will add, I'm so glad you guys joined this forum. I watch your website like a hawk for pictures...Hint hint. (Means post more pics on here of your aldabs and galaps!:))
 

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Rover15 said:
Rover15 said:
Great thread I love learning and this deffinitly opened my eyes when buying a tortoise that is a couple years old. Do you have a thread started with the ideal enclosure set up that would be "interesting" enough to get them moving?

Cage size can be tricky and all of my experience is dealing with outdoor pens. That is because my farm is in South Florida.
Let me try to answer this by way of example. If you had a 7” Aldabra I would not put it in a pen 20’x20’ that pen is too big and I have seen just as much problems making pens too big for rearing young animals. I would like to see something at least 4’x8’ to as large as 6’x10’
Pen ornaments like Trees, rocks, and logs give some ground diversity and set up blind areas for them to explore. Keep in mind having things to climb over is great exercise but also can be very dangerous if they flip in the sun. also one of the most stimulating things they can have, is a cage mate or mates.
But I don’t like mixing different species and I don’t like mixing animals that are very different in size.

Mixing species I understand is a no no however you read a lot on this forum that tortoises are solatery animals and DO NOT need a "buddy" or "friend" now they do mention if you feel the need to add this "cage mates" that you go with a trio 1male 2females or other combenations. If you don't mind me asking why do you feel a cage mate(s) would help stimulate when most say it would just cause problems? I'm only curious in your point of view.

Here is my current setup for my almost 4" yellow foot

First half with my slate rock for feeding also has my CHE above and you can kind of see a hide in the bottom right corner

245elb5.jpg


Here is the second half with live plants

2u93445.jpg


I'm always worried about tipping this is why I kept my rocks level instead of a pile to climb over

It is in a 36L"x18W"x15H" I'm working on building a tort table I started with a 3'x3' layout but I want to try and go bigger. But what is your opinion as far as my set up goes?

P.s. I use tinypic.com to upload my pictures

Well you got me there. I don’t like talking about things I don’t have experience with like indoor husbandry of tortoises.
I know many people are successful and I would rather see you get an opinion from someone experienced keeping animals in those types of environments

For my taste I will say it’s very nicely done, and I like the topography of the cage.
While this cage looks interesting I don’t see it promoting a lot of walking activity. Now you have a Yellowfoot, and again I do not have experience in that venue but this would never work for a Galop or an Aldabra it isn’t enough to just plow over some rough terrain they need to walk (or Run).
On the right day you can see a 7” Aldabra circle his 4x8 foot pen a few times, that’s a lot of distances. Now I am not sating they do it every day but there are times they are quit active and I am saying they need that activity.

The second part of your question opens up a whole bag of worms. “Do Tortoises need cage mates?”
I want to preface this conversation by saying when it comes to behavior and tortoises wanting company, I only have my experience to draw from.
Now it’s true I have been doing this for 30 years and I have hundreds of tortoises, but still my observations are particular to my conditions, cages and my involvement with those animals. So the short answer is yes, Tortoise like the company of other cage mates and its stimulating, the only time I see problems is in the case of mutable males, however that is also species specific.

The long answer is, I think there needs to be a lot more conversation on tortoise behavior, that is why I am writing an article on the “Differences of behavior between Galapagos and Aldabra tortoises “.
I hope to have that one up by Monday. I have many years of stories and observations and I think some will be quite surprised.
Some will probably think I am nuts as well.

Sam Pascucci
 

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Because some people will run out and buy another tortoise by reading your opinion on tortoises having buddies. Will you say that you are really only talking about the Galops and Aldabras? Also, would you say, the right size (very large)enclosures, sight barriers, etc plays a big part in it? I am just concerned about all the members that have been waiting for at least one person to say their tort needs a buddy, to run out an get that buddy, without paying attention to the rest of what you said. Example, Your talking Galops and Aldabras and your being asked about a species you haven't even mentioned. So we don't have a bunch of tortoises thrown in to be a buddy, and members with fighting tortoises, can you elaborate a little more on the exact (as close as possible) conditions that your multiples tortoises were kept and be species specific. As much as I would love tortoises to all get along with a buddy. I do believe it is a few species that can get along with little or no problems. Then the others, need more specific enclosure considerations, in order for them to get along in pairs/groups. Thanks. Interesting reading your thread. Do look forward to more of your post.
 

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RedfootsRule said:
I completely agree about cage mates. Now, of course, some species you must be careful, but with the ones that get along together...They play. I've seen countless times tortoises rub noses, walk in formation, etc. etc. They ARE social in captivity, regardless of how they are in the wild. I disagree with any of those out there that make cage mates out to be some abhorrent thing, and the owners as selfish because a cage mate is "only for them". They learn from each other...One tortoise figures something out, the others follow suit. There was actually a kind of psychological experiment of this done on red foots...Something about the tortoises finding their way through a wire maze to food. Only a few tortoises were successful, but they found that if the unsuccessful tortoises watched the successful tortoise do it, the success rate was near 100%. Very interesting....
...And I will add, I'm so glad you guys joined this forum. I watch your website like a hawk for pictures...Hint hint. (Means post more pics on here of your aldabs and galaps!:))

Well I have a funny store like that. I had eight young adult Aldabras in a pen now as things are, there are times of the year when all they think about is how to get out of that cage. I have had them dig under a fence till they could get their shell under the bottom board and just lift the fence post (with cement) out of the ground. I have had them simply break through and I have had them slid the gates open I have also had then jump over a four foot fence.

I raised eight of them from hatchlings 24 years ago. I continually had to increase the height of the fence or they would climb it and jump over.
One day they came up with a new way of doing things, and as many times as I have told this story few believe me, but I have seen this behavior too many times to think it just chance. Especially given that Aldabras the most social tortoises I have ever seen and by social I mean between and amongst themselves.
(See my thread on Monday about the “behavioral difference between Galapagos and Aldabras”.

Anyway back to the story. One rainy day one of the Aldabras parks himself at the base of the gate (The lowest part of the fence) then another one stood on his back
Slid the top rail over and jumped over the fence. Then over the next few minutes each and every one of them jumped the fence then he simply got up and climbed over the now partly open gate.

The good part of this story is, I caught it on my security cameras.
The bad part of the story is by some mean twist of fate, I lost the last part and I think you see only 5 escape.
You can see the video here. www.Floridaiguana.com scroll down the home page and look for The Great Tortoise Escape at FloridaIguana.com

Sam Pascucci
 

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Wellington I hope by your general comment for other members might run out and buy an other tort to add a buddy you didn't assume that was my intention. My 36x18x15 I feel is barely suitable for my 4" yf let alone adding an other one in there. That being said I would never add an other tortoise with out being 100% sure it was safe and my space was right. Now would do it yes if after all things (research, others opinions, and experience) considered it was safe and my enclosure was appropriate.

I apologize if I have steered this thread in the wrong direction I was only curious about thoughts on my enclosure, and cage mates, based on the opinion that was originally stated about the aldabs and galaps, it was my assumption that what is interesting and exciting to them would/could be interesting or exciting or other tortoise to help encourage exercise
 

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Sam, that is a great video. Did they have to turn left? As in, is there any obstruction that prevents them from going straight or to the right after climbing over?
 

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Rover15 said:
Wellington I hope by your general comment for other members might run out and buy an other tort to add a buddy you didn't assume that was my intention. My 36x18x15 I feel is barely suitable for my 4" yf let alone adding an other one in there. That being said I would never add an other tortoise with out being 100% sure it was safe and my space was right. Now would do it yes if after all things (research, others opinions, and experience) considered it was safe and my enclosure was appropriate.

I apologize if I have steered this thread in the wrong direction I was only curious about thoughts on my enclosure, and cage mates, based on the opinion that was originally stated about the aldabs and galaps, it was my assumption that what is interesting and exciting to them would/could be interesting or exciting or other tortoise to help encourage exercise

No, not even a thought. Also, no, I didn't mean to imply you were steering this thread some place else, either. I have just seen too many new members try to get the answer they want to hear, instead of the correct answer. I did use your post as an example, sorry, it wasn't meant to say you were doing anything wrong. I just wanted to make sure Sam understood what I was trying to say. I'm not always good and usually long winded, like now, in trying to get what I am saying across. Sorry again if you took it wrong.
 

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Sam this is fantastic your work and observations being put into a reality to the tortoise community. Not very many understand the details of the giant species. Its ashame so many of them are bought as novelties with the label of "I own a giant tortoise". The lack of knowledge, space and dietary requirements are sometimes overlooked. I recently have posted a thread a few weeks again that kinda pertains to this issue. Even with zoos and the lack of space required for these giants. They are both island grazers and are solely dedicated to seed propogation on those islands. I see a lot of these issues in animals I go to see for relinquishment to our facilities and its very sad seeing such gentle giants that cannot walk from improper muscular development from lack of daily exercise and proper nutrition. Greg(aldabraman) and I talk sometimes and we both keep repeating the few words to each other that sums these giants up in proper care. "They have to be happy". Obviously the label of happy has a deeper meaning than that of a common word. Good space, good food source(which simbiotically is associated with the food source and grazing in one), and sense of security. I love what your doing and love you know these giant species as well that you do. Great post.
 

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wellington said:
Rover15 said:
Wellington I hope by your general comment for other members might run out and buy an other tort to add a buddy you didn't assume that was my intention. My 36x18x15 I feel is barely suitable for my 4" yf let alone adding an other one in there. That being said I would never add an other tortoise with out being 100% sure it was safe and my space was right. Now would do it yes if after all things (research, others opinions, and experience) considered it was safe and my enclosure was appropriate.

I apologize if I have steered this thread in the wrong direction I was only curious about thoughts on my enclosure, and cage mates, based on the opinion that was originally stated about the aldabs and galaps, it was my assumption that what is interesting and exciting to them would/could be interesting or exciting or other tortoise to help encourage exercise

No, not even a thought. Also, no, I didn't mean to imply you were steering this thread some place else, either. I have just seen too many new members try to get the answer they want to hear, instead of the correct answer. I did use your post as an example, sorry, it wasn't meant to say you were doing anything wrong. I just wanted to make sure Sam understood what I was trying to say. I'm not always good and usually long winded, like now, in trying to get what I am saying across. Sorry again if you took it wrong.



I won't lie I orignally assumed it was directed to me. I did spend a lot of time researching turtles before realizing they are much dirtier and harder in to keep (in my opinion (buying 100gal plus tank vs buuilding a tort table or out side pen)

And then I started researching tortoises and made my choice of yellow foots and not that I'm "adictied" to the hobby I am looing in to some of the other torts however I'm still learning about my current eastern box turtles and my yellow foot that you can't learn from a book or care sheet.
 
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