Pyramiding and my experiences

[allegraf]

Ok, I will start this discussion off with disclaimers...I am no scientist nor am I detail oriented enough to keep a log. Ok, in 2014, I kept a few hatchlings back. Once they hatched, I kept them in a separate incubator at 82F and about 80% humidity then I kept them in tightly controlled conditions in larger plastic bins with under heat mat at 80-82F and about 80% humidity for about a year. They were fed the normal diet, a little mazuri once every two weeks, 5 days greens and 2 days fruits/mushrooms. Fruit days were in-dispersed randomly during the green days. Result-noticeably pyramiding:








2015 hatchlings, kept them in the same one month in incubator and then plastic controlled conditions for about 5-6 months. Result: even slighter pyramiding but still noticeable.








This years hatchlings, I kept in the incubator until the egg sac was absorbed, then controlled conditions for a month and then outside in the florida weather. The spring weather varies from 80-82F daytime and 74F-ish at night. Summer varies from 90F+ in daytime to 78-79F at night. Same diet. Humidity is higher outside at about 87%. I think that temperature fluctuation made a difference.







Here are pic of my outside pens. The yearlings and hatchlings have plywood on both ends to act as shade. Underneath the plywood are additional hides, half plastic pots, logs, CBS blocks. Sorry for the **** quality of the pics, but the mosquitos were biting! As you can see I let the grass, the hibiscus and whatever grows keep on growing. Husband will go in with a weed whacker in the adult pen when needed, I simply rip out patches in the smaller pens.

Adult cover:




Babies/sub pens:















So in conclusion, we will see how this year's hatchling grow and if they develop pyramiding or if I have found a way that works for me and my area of the world. This is why one way does not fit all. We all live in different parts of the world with different weather/temps/humidity, etc., I just wanted to share what appears to be working for me. I hope this will open up a meaningful discussion.

 

[dmmj]

so did you reach the same conclusion as I did? natural humidity and warm weather Florida works best?

 

[MysticCaribou]

Thank you for sharing all that. Your habitat looks great.

 

[Tom]

Very interesting info. There are many variables at work here though…

I'd love to see a comparison of growth rates too. What did each group weight at 6, 12, 18, and 24 months?

I also noted from your post that humidity was higher outside without the electric heat. I've long suspected that electric heat in all its forms is a contributor to pyramiding. Do you think that higher humidity might be a factor?

The big defining experiment that I see next is to do another group indoors, but go warmer during the day than your usually 80-82 and cooler at night. If it truly is just due to temps, then this experiment will prove it. If not, then there might be some other factors in the great outdoors at play.

My experience with keeping groups of baby sulcatas outdoors most of the day in my warm/hot dry climate was 1/3 to 1/2 the growth rate on the same quantity of food, and significantly more pyramiding on the outdoor group. They were kept in a very shady, heavily planted, frequently watered, humid enclosure with damp ground. They were brought indoors to sleep each night, but outdoors all day. The other concurrent group was kept mostly indoors with one hour outdoor excursions for sunning 3-5 times a week.

I couldn't do what you are doing here. My climate has WILD temp swings from day to night. 100 in the summer days and 55-60 at night. So I thoroughly enjoy you sharing your observations and insight from over there. Thank you.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I appreciate you sharing your findings.
As I also live nearby and plan to raise baby Redfoot in the near future.

 

[allegraf]

so did you reach the same conclusion as I did? natural humidity and warm weather Florida works best?

Ah, easier said than done. I had to get over the fear of predators. No screen covers no protection, just hiding spots at its best. We have had opossums dig up eggs and fingers crossed, no losses of actual hatchling's so far. I'm not so sure it is just the warm/hot weather. Who knows, smarter minds than mine can delve into the magic/science of it all (tongue in cheek statement of course). Space is too large and any covers would be too heavy to make it convenient. Plus this way we are all sinking or swimming.

 

[allegraf]

Very interesting info. There are many variables at work here though…

I'd love to see a comparison of growth rates too. What did each group weight at 6, 12, 18, and 24 months?

I also noted from your post that humidity was higher outside without the electric heat. I've long suspected that electric heat in all its forms is a contributor to pyramiding. Do you think that higher humidity might be a factor?

The big defining experiment that I see next is to do another group indoors, but go warmer during the day than your usually 80-82 and cooler at night. If it truly is just due to temps, then this experiment will prove it. If not, then there might be some other factors in the great outdoors at play.

My experience with keeping groups of baby sulcatas outdoors most of the day in my warm/hot dry climate was 1/3 to 1/2 the growth rate on the same quantity of food, and significantly more pyramiding on the outdoor group. They were kept in a very shady, heavily planted, frequently watered, humid enclosure with damp ground. They were brought indoors to sleep each night, but outdoors all day. The other concurrent group was kept mostly indoors with one hour outdoor excursions for sunning 3-5 times a week.

I couldn't do what you are doing here. My climate has WILD temp swings from day to night. 100 in the summer days and 55-60 at night. So I thoroughly enjoy you sharing your observations and insight from over there. Thank you.

I agree I should try to do a controlled experiment, but two kids under five, lack of motivation and if this works I'll be happy. Maybe when the babies get a bit bigger I'll experiment...and actually document.

 

[allegraf]

I appreciate you sharing your findings.
As I also live nearby and plan to raise baby Redfoot in the near future.

Hopefully you can learn from my numerous mistakes!

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Hopefully you can learn from my numerous mistakes!

Ultimately that's how we learn the most.

 

[mark1]

Ah, easier said than done. I had to get over the fear of predators. No screen covers no protection, just hiding spots at its best. We have had opossums dig up eggs and fingers crossed, no losses of actual hatchling's so far. I'm not so sure it is just the warm/hot weather. Who knows, smarter minds than mine can delve into the magic/science of it all (tongue in cheek statement of course). Space is too large and any covers would be too heavy to make it convenient. Plus this way we are all sinking or swimming.

my solution was a small fence around the pens and dogs ..... the dogs are smart enough to know their not allowed in the fenced in area , and anything wants in the pens needs to run the gauntlet . with 5 dogs who seem to thoroughly enjoy the job , nothing makes it .....

 

[Gillian M]

Hopefully you can learn from my numerous mistakes!

Thanks for posting!

 

[cdmay]

Good information with not surprising results.
I would echo Tom's statement that electric heat (and I would add lighting too) seems to increase the likelihood of pyramiding.
However, I would worry about he predators. It takes just ONE random raccoon or coyote to wander into your yard one night and take out a dozen or two little tortoises.
Think about a frame with decent hardware cloth screening that you can lay over the top of the little ones enclosure.

One question...I noticed the firebush in the first photo. Do your tortoises eat the leaves, or the flowers?

 

[allegraf]

Good information with not surprising results.
I would echo Tom's statement that electric heat (and I would add lighting too) seems to increase the likelihood of pyramiding.
However, I would worry about he predators. It takes just ONE random raccoon or coyote to wander into your yard one night and take out a dozen or two little tortoises.
Think about a frame with decent hardware cloth screening that you can lay over the top of the little ones enclosure.

One question...I noticed the firebush in the first photo. Do your tortoises eat the leaves, or the flowers?

No they don't eat any of it. The neighbors pitties have scared all of the raccoons away. We set traps and only caught opossums.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

All the same parents? Are there snails and isopods (pill bugs, rolly pollys) outside that may be consumed?

 

[Redstrike]

Thanks for sharing Allegra. Sounds like diet did not change when kept outdoors or did they forage on hibiscus and weeds more than farmed lettuce etc.?

 

[Anyfoot]

Does anyone know what the growth rate relation is between keratin and bone. How does it work. I'm thinking that bone grows quicker during the warmer times than cooler times. i.e day and night. Is that correct.
Does the keratin have a constant but slower growth rate throughout day and night.
If we look at #7 in this post you can see where the scute boarders have not filled with keratin yet. Is this where natural bone growth has effectively opened the scute plates and by allowing cooler periods at night it gives time fore the keratin to fill up the boarders.
If we allow a constant heat temp are we fighting letting the keratin catch up with bone growth?
This photo to me looks like it could go really smooth(wild) looking.

 

[MysticCaribou]

Does anyone know what the growth rate relation is between keratin and bone. How does it work. I'm thinking that bone grows quicker during the warmer times than cooler times. i.e day and night. Is that correct.
Does the keratin have a constant but slower growth rate throughout day and night.
If we look at #7 in this post you can see where the scute boarders have not filled with keratin yet. Is this where natural bone growth has effectively opened the scute plates and by allowing cooler periods at night it gives time fore the keratin to fill up the boarders.
If we allow a constant heat temp are we fighting letting the keratin catch up with bone growth?
This photo to me looks like it could go really smooth(wild) looking.

You brought up something that's interesting and I'm trying to understand this. Are you saying that the white is due to fast growth and that eventually the melatonin which makes it dark, will catch up and fill that area in? Or will the white areas always remain just that - white? And separately - the temperature should drop (within set limits) at night - right? Thats the way it is in the wild and that's how I have it set up.

 

[Anyfoot]

You brought up something that's interesting and I'm trying to understand this. Are you saying that the white is due to fast growth and that eventually the melatonin which makes it dark, will catch up and fill that area in? Or will the white areas always remain just that - white? And separately - the temperature should drop (within set limits) at night - right? Thats the way it is in the wild and that's how I have it set up.

The white growth lines will go dark eventually. I'm no expert by any means, just trying to work out why 1 out of 3 of my juveniles shows minor pyramiding. A lot on here already use the night time low temp methods with other species. I didn't with my redfoots. But this thread got me thinking. My 2 smooth torts alway slept at the cool end of the enclosure,. My faster growing minor pyramided tort slept at the warm end 9 times out of 10.
So that got me thinking that bone growth and karatin growth needs to grow at the same pace over a certain period of time to maintain the curvature. If the tort grows and the keratin doesn't follow suit do we get stacking of keratin(pyramiding). Then I thought, theres 2 ways to get the 2 to grow in parralel, assuming keratin grows continuously and not dictated by temps and diet etc is correct.
Either you soak which makes keratin supple (check your fingernails when you get out of the bath, yes it's a different keratin but so what) and helping it keep up with growth of the tort, or you slow the torts growth with a temp drop allowing the keratin to keep up. Then I thought, I have a wild caught tort here, her plastron and carapace is very very very thick, does the drop in temps at night create a stronger thicker carapace and plastron.
Then I thought, I'd better stop thinking.

 

[allegraf]

I think it is an argument that smarter minds than mine need to review and apply the black magic of science.

Will, there are all kinds of creepy crawlies outside. The parents are variable, same mothers but not sure as to who is the baby's daddy as the females are exposed to all my males.

 

[Anyfoot]

Ok, I will start this discussion off with disclaimers...I am no scientist nor am I detail oriented enough to keep a log. Ok, in 2014, I kept a few hatchlings back. Once they hatched, I kept them in a separate incubator at 82F and about 80% humidity then I kept them in tightly controlled conditions in larger plastic bins with under heat mat at 80-82F and about 80% humidity for about a year. They were fed the normal diet, a little mazuri once every two weeks, 5 days greens and 2 days fruits/mushrooms. Fruit days were in-dispersed randomly during the green days. Result-noticeably pyramiding:








2015 hatchlings, kept them in the same one month in incubator and then plastic controlled conditions for about 5-6 months. Result: even slighter pyramiding but still noticeable.








This years hatchlings, I kept in the incubator until the egg sac was absorbed, then controlled conditions for a month and then outside in the florida weather. The spring weather varies from 80-82F daytime and 74F-ish at night. Summer varies from 90F+ in daytime to 78-79F at night. Same diet. Humidity is higher outside at about 87%. I think that temperature fluctuation made a difference.







Here are pic of my outside pens. The yearlings and hatchlings have plywood on both ends to act as shade. Underneath the plywood are additional hides, half plastic pots, logs, CBS blocks. Sorry for the **** quality of the pics, but the mosquitos were biting! As you can see I let the grass, the hibiscus and whatever grows keep on growing. Husband will go in with a weed whacker in the adult pen when needed, I simply rip out patches in the smaller pens.

Adult cover:




Babies/sub pens:















So in conclusion, we will see how this year's hatchling grow and if they develop pyramiding or if I have found a way that works for me and my area of the world. This is why one way does not fit all. We all live in different parts of the world with different weather/temps/humidity, etc., I just wanted to share what appears to be working for me. I hope this will open up a meaningful discussion.

How did the 2016 babies turn out @allegraf ?