pyramided torts... still?

[PeanutbuttER]

You know, there are tons of posts on here debating why some captive raised tortoises are pyramided. Has anyone ever thought that "stress" could be a contributing factor? Being stressed and coming down from it causes all sorts of health problems in tortoises. I think the majority of tortoise keepers ignore the fact that they're handling a wild animal everyday, thinking that they like being in captivity. Nobody ever thinks that everything to a tortoise stresses it out. For example, handling (to them, they're about to be eaten,) competition at the food bowl, watering hole, ect... When your tortoise has a runny nose, URI, parasites, anorexia, lethargy, stress is always the initial, underlying cause. I definitely think we need to re-evaluate the whole "pyramiding" debate and add stress as a factor.

We all know that a stressed tortoise will eventually become an ill tortoise. Why can't a stressed tortoise become a pyramided tortoise?

-Matt

-Matt

I like your thinking on this Matt. The more I think about it the more I realize that those who raise smooth tortoises often seem to take a very hands-off approach. They soak every once in a while and have the enclosure set up and running "automatically". The tort sees the person when the food comes, but still may not be "handled" for days/weeks on end so maybe it is less stressed. I like this thought, it seems as plausible as any other and it's one thing I haven't heard anyone expressly say before. Thank you.

Once again, since everyone is hypersensitive on any thread that is pyramiding-related, stress could be an important FACTOR, not a end-all be-all of tortoise pyramiding problems.

 

[matt41gb]

You know, there are tons of posts on here debating why some captive raised tortoises are pyramided. Has anyone ever thought that "stress" could be a contributing factor? Being stressed and coming down from it causes all sorts of health problems in tortoises. I think the majority of tortoise keepers ignore the fact that they're handling a wild animal everyday, thinking that they like being in captivity. Nobody ever thinks that everything to a tortoise stresses it out. For example, handling (to them, they're about to be eaten,) competition at the food bowl, watering hole, ect... When your tortoise has a runny nose, URI, parasites, anorexia, lethargy, stress is always the initial, underlying cause. I definitely think we need to re-evaluate the whole "pyramiding" debate and add stress as a factor.

We all know that a stressed tortoise will eventually become an ill tortoise. Why can't a stressed tortoise become a pyramided tortoise?

-Matt

I like your thinking on this Matt. The more I think about it the more I realize that those who raise smooth tortoises often seem to take a very hands-off approach. They soak every once in a while and have the enclosure set up and running "automatically". The tort sees the person when the food comes, but still may not be "handled" for days/weeks on end so maybe it is less stressed. I like this thought, it seems as plausible as any other and it's one thing I haven't heard anyone expressly say before. Thank you.

Once again, since everyone is hypersensitive on any thread that is pyramiding-related, stress could be an important FACTOR, not a end-all be-all of tortoise pyramiding problems.

Thanks, PeanutbuttER. I was laying in bed brainstorming and it just hit me. Duh!!! Tortoise keeping is really simple. Treat it like a tortoise and it will develop like a tortoise. I always think of Orca whales in captivity. Stress leads to depression, which leads to their dorsal fin falling over.

Up and down stress levels cause a lot of damage to the body of a tortoise. It could definitely be a cause for pyramiding.

What if under heavy stress the body stops growing? Now when a tortoise starts feeling safe for a certain amount of time the body returns to normal growth pattern causing rapid bone growth just under the scutes of the carapace. I haven't come across any literature about this being a cause, but I wouldn't ignore it.

-Matt

 

[PeanutbuttER]

I thought the orca fin-sagging problems were a result of their inability in captivity to dive deep enough to experience the requisite pressure to support proper fin growth.

I know a lot of people are jealous of those "numbskulls" that don't pay any attention to their tortoise, yet it somehow is the most wonderful looking tortoise around. I've read a good many somethings to that effect time and time again on this forum.

I don't know if I fully agree that it plays a significant role yet, but I'm thinking about it. It does make sense to me, but I need to think of more examples both for and against it before I decide where I stand. That said, I think this is definitely a thought worth considering as seriously as any other pyramiding-related factor.

And if this is the case, tortoise really are much better off without us

 

[John]

Squamata, my post was only intended to infuse some other thinking in regards to pyramid tortoises in the wild or captivity. Most seem to be under the impression that wild tortoises, other than the ones known to pyramid as part of their genetic makeup, dont pyramid in the wild and that is simply not true. The reason or reasons for platynota pyramiding in the wild is not understood.

I completely understand the point you are trying too make,I'm just trying too drag out what your theory may be for my curiosity.I don't do anything with any of my animals because one person believes it too be good,I like too read all opinions and make my own decisions,its called free thinking.I get your concern that people are too easily led thats why cults are so easy too form.your statement that 8 chelonians you raised excactly the same half showed signs of pyramiding and half did not,but you don't say how they were kept so a newbie not having any other details may conclude that pyramiding is purely genetic. john

 

[cdmay]

[quote='maggie3fan' pid='205235' dateline='1294456960']
BTW...While I do advocate the policy of 80% humidity, I keep a humid substrate but do not mist at all. I soak several times a week so they can drink, and keep a moist substrate, I pour water and stir it around with my hand. I do what I was taught years ago and have continued to do so. It may be old fashioned but I have found it works. I am not a fiend about having a humid hide or more than about 80% humidity. If my percentage of humidity falls I don't get all riled up about it, I just don't care that much.

Years ago I was a member of TT and got into a dispute with AH about Sulcata needing humidity to keep from being pyramided. He said they didn't need humidity, I said they did and that part of where they lived was humid. We battled back and forth and I was called rude names by some of the other members and they also said that Sulcata didn't need humidity to prevent pyramiding and there was no humidity where they lived. Anyhow, we went back and forth with me feeling put down and insulted and the end result was that I got banned for life...but right now it is 82 degrees with 73% humidity in the biggest part of their territory...
[/quote]

Those are excellent points maggie3fan. All too many tortoise people, including HRH Highfield, jump to the conclusion that just because a certain tortoise species comes from a dry environment that those animals are constantly bone dry. They are forgetting that the tortoises in these places do not sit out in the open all day but rather, find cover that retains a measure of humidity. In the case of sulcatas they dig burrows that are far higher in humidity than the surround dry scrub (not true desert) that they live in.
Sulcatas are like giant versions of our native gopher tortoises in the south that live almost exclusively in dry sandy habitats. Gopher tortoises even live behind the dune areas of our beaches where the combination of sand, wind and elevation causes the ground to dry out within hours of even the heaviest rains. Yet those tortoises have their burrows to retreat to where the humidity remains quite high.
Yet we still hear some folks insist that sulcatas live 'in the desert' where there is nothing but sand (one wonders what they would eat if they lived among the barren sand dunes?) sun, and blistering sun.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

[quote='maggie3fan' pid='205235' dateline='1294456960']
BTW...While I do advocate the policy of 80% humidity, I keep a humid substrate but do not mist at all. I soak several times a week so they can drink, and keep a moist substrate, I pour water and stir it around with my hand. I do what I was taught years ago and have continued to do so. It may be old fashioned but I have found it works. I am not a fiend about having a humid hide or more than about 80% humidity. If my percentage of humidity falls I don't get all riled up about it, I just don't care that much.

Years ago I was a member of TT and got into a dispute with AH about Sulcata needing humidity to keep from being pyramided. He said they didn't need humidity, I said they did and that part of where they lived was humid. We battled back and forth and I was called rude names by some of the other members and they also said that Sulcata didn't need humidity to prevent pyramiding and there was no humidity where they lived. Anyhow, we went back and forth with me feeling put down and insulted and the end result was that I got banned for life...but right now it is 82 degrees with 73% humidity in the biggest part of their territory...

Those are excellent points maggie3fan. All too many tortoise people, including HRH Highfield, jump to the conclusion that just because a certain tortoise species comes from a dry environment that those animals are constantly bone dry. They are forgetting that the tortoises in these places do not sit out in the open all day but rather, find cover that retains a measure of humidity. In the case of sulcatas they dig burrows that are far higher in humidity than the surround dry scrub (not true desert) that they live in.
Sulcatas are like giant versions of our native gopher tortoises in the south that live almost exclusively in dry sandy habitats. Gopher tortoises even live behind the dune areas of our beaches where the combination of sand, wind and elevation causes the ground to dry out within hours of even the heaviest rains. Yet those tortoises have their burrows to retreat to where the humidity remains quite high.
Yet we still hear some folks insist that sulcatas live 'in the desert' where there is nothing but sand (one wonders what they would eat if they lived among the barren sand dunes?) sun, and blistering sun.
[/quote]

Thank you Carl.. maybe they will consider what you ( agreeing with 'us' ) have said!

BTW.. how much do you play with your redfoot tortoises [ from Brazil ]? Probly as much as Tom Mc and Douglas B and Allegra F and Kristina D and Matt W and I etc., etc. play with and handle our redfoots?

Terry K

 

[mike1011]

Just to throw this out there on the stress thing, years ago I broke my wrist, ring finger and had major lacerations that cut tendons and veins. My nails on that hand stopped growing for several months, when they did start growing in again they came in very bumpy or what we call pyramided. The surgeons said it was the trauma and will eventually grow out and the new will be normal which it did. I googled this once and found that abnormal nail growth can be from diet(not my case) or stress and/or trauma. I dont believe this is the case with torts, just thought it was interesting because the nail is essentially the same as the outer layer of the shell.

 

[Marty333]

Let my have a try at this
First off, Terry those tortoises are beautiful!!!!!!!!
Now back on topic. Pyramiding isnt fatal to a tortoise so far it is just a cosmetic thing. Yes it deforms their bones but it can't kill them. My thought is we try to prevent pyramiding because of how it looks and its reputation. Yes horrible pyramiding is bad. Tortoises can still live a happy normal life if they are pyramided. Isnt that the important thing? Shouldnt we care about their happiness instead of trying to constantly perfect their shells? I doubt Sulcatas burrows in the wild reach up to 80% humidity. I think they just file down their shell just like their beak. All that rubbing while they are digging,leaving, or entering the burrow must do something to their shell. Now I am no expert so this probably sounds bogus but its just my thought.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Marty: First off, Terry those tortoises are beautiful!!!!!!!!
Now back on topic.

They are.. and they are from a small group of Platynota aka Burmese Star [ WC - from a confiscated group in earlier 2000 now residing at Knoxville Zoo ].. and they appear to have varying growth formation don't they?

Not sure if they have produced yet.. I'll have to check with their keeper there. During this particular 'photo-shoot'.. he didn't touch any of the tortoises.

This is 'hide' end of their set-up for the G. elegans aka Indian Star group.. also from a confiscated group from several years back. A number of these are F2 - this is a 5.5 group.. the females are the larger ones

Just showing a couple different species and how they look WC and captive raised. There are a few more if anyone is interested...

Terry K

 

[terryo]

I'm no tortoise expert, but I'll add my 2 cents, for what it's worth. I've never soaked Pio, or handled him....ever. He has a bowel of water if he wants to soak, or drink. He's outside all Summer, with no handling at all. He's very friendly when he see's me come with the food, and will eat out of my hand, but must feel confident that no one is going to pick him up. The only real stress he has is when he come's in for the Winter. I rarely even take pictures of him. Most of the pictures I take of my animals are through the glass or when they are outside. (maybe that's why they're so bad) I DO talk to them all the time, whenever I pass by the vivariums. I don't know if this helped to make him smooth or not. But I really think the stress factor has a lot to do with a tort's health.
I had a very shy box turtle once that someone gave me, who would go into his shell the minute he saw anyone. After putting him my garden, I never picked him up again. It took him almost two years to stay open when he saw me come with the food. Eventually when I sat there reading a book, he would come to sit near me.

 

[cdmay]

BTW.. how much do you play with your redfoot tortoises [ from Brazil ]?
Terry K

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to play basketball with them.
But even though I'm 6' 3" my tortoises could out jump me and their ball handling skills were much better than mine too, so I quit.

 

[Yvonne G]

Well, I'll just throw this into the mix:

I hatched a little leopard about 5 years ago (3/10/05). Didn't know about humidity at that time and kept him on oat hay pellets (these look just like alfalfa pellets). He was fed a well-balanced diet the first year, then outside in a baby pen to graze from then on. He was kept warm enough, had hiding places, water and wasn't handled. He was not stressed.

He looks like a pineapple.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

BTW.. how much do you play with your redfoot tortoises [ from Brazil ]?
Terry K

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to play basketball with them.
But even though I'm 6' 3" my tortoises could out jump me and their ball handling skills were much better than mine too, so I quit.

Yeah.. I used to attempt "sprints" with them to ensure they [ and I ] got the needed exercise.. which is part of the "balanced" care of course. Ever seen how fast these dudes are when they want to be? Proving once again...... we really don't known what they do when we're not looking!!! - not to mention in the wild Carl.

Your most humble and thankful prote'ge'...

Terry K

 

[onarock]

Marty: First off, Terry those tortoises are beautiful!!!!!!!!
Now back on topic.

They are.. and they are from a small group of Platynota aka Burmese Star [ WC - from a confiscated group in earlier 2000 now residing at Knoxville Zoo ].. and they appear to have varying growth formation don't they?

Not sure if they have produced yet.. I'll have to check with their keeper there. During this particular 'photo-shoot'.. he didn't touch any of the tortoises.

This is 'hide' end of their set-up for the G. elegans aka Indian Star group.. also from a confiscated group from several years back. A number of these are F2 - this is a 5.5 group.. the females are the larger ones

Just showing a couple different species and how they look WC and captive raised. There are a few more if anyone is interested...

Terry K

I am

---

I'm no tortoise expert, but I'll add my 2 cents, for what it's worth. I've never soaked Pio, or handled him....ever. He has a bowel of water if he wants to soak, or drink. He's outside all Summer, with no handling at all. He's very friendly when he see's me come with the food, and will eat out of my hand, but must feel confident that no one is going to pick him up. The only real stress he has is when he come's in for the Winter. I rarely even take pictures of him. Most of the pictures I take of my animals are through the glass or when they are outside. (maybe that's why they're so bad) I DO talk to them all the time, whenever I pass by the vivariums. I don't know if this helped to make him smooth or not. But I really think the stress factor has a lot to do with a tort's health.
I had a very shy box turtle once that someone gave me, who would go into his shell the minute he saw anyone. After putting him my garden, I never picked him up again. It took him almost two years to stay open when he saw me come with the food. Eventually when I sat there reading a book, he would come to sit near me.

Love your tortariums, dig your style, you should contribute more.

 

[moswen]

um, i think pretty much almost every person who has responded to this post has mis-interpreted what i wrote, and has found a reason to raise a debate on some obviously sore/touchy hot topics for said persons.

my origional post was to rant about something that i found disturbing to my own personal view of the world. in my own personal opinion, i have felt feelings of anger that someone would choose to create a tortoise that is so badly pyramided that if it is a female, then she would most likely never be able to be succssfuly mounted by a male and therefore never be able to produce babies.

and that person had the audacity to call that animal beautiful when her shell was so badly mal-formed.

i felt as though this person was simply trying to make some money off a poorly shaped creature that was in his/her care, and he/she created the animal to look that way, because he/she just could not bring him/herself to take proper precautions and measurements in regards to keeping the animal in the best way possible. but this is how I FEEL. I DID NOT SAY THAT THIS WAS THE TRUTH ABOUT HOW THIS PERSON FEELS, OR CARES FOR HIS/HER TORTS.

this was the impression i got from the for-sale ad, when i saw it and it was so obviously designed to glorify his/her personal care techniques and hand-selection abilities to produce "beautiful" tortoises on a three year old animal.

i was angered that this person has the ability to use a computer, obviously, since he/she was posting ads online, and did not use the time to research proper care for that species of animal. i was angered that this poor tortosie is going to live this way for the rest of it's life because someone, who obviously considers him/herself capable of raising and selling torts, chose to disregard the circumstantial evidence for over 10 years on how to create a tortoise, shaped the way NATURE intended it to look.

let's look at it this way:

let's say, your job is to be a contractor. you go to an interview, you're hired, and your job is to bid on how much it is going to cost your company in materials and labor to create what the buyer wants created.

i'm going to assume, that if this is your JOB, you would do some background research? find out how much lumber costs? find out how much your workers are going to charge you per hour? find out how many workers you need? find out how many hours it will take your workers to complete the project?

if you don't do some pre-searching and find these things out, then you are more than likely to not have a job in a very short amount of time.

would anyone care to dispute this claim?

the same practice that you take in making sure your job with HUMANS goes smoothly and without complaint, i PERSONALLY feel you should do with animals, who have no say in their care or quality of life.

someone who does not research and do background work and reading on the proper ways to care for an animal, in MY OPINION, should not have one. and, IN MY OPINION, they should not then turn around and SELL these animals, in their horrid conditions, to other consumers. but, as i have stated, this is just MY PERSONAL OPINION.

would you buy a shelf that was bowed? would you buy a house that leaned, at an incredible slant, to the left? would you rent an apartment with no walls? would you buy a car with no shell? (if you're a mechanic, don't answer that lol!)

i should hope that you would say no. if you say yes, i hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you may live in a dr. seuss book.

the same care that one takes in other day-to-day jobs, one should take where animals are concerned. IN MY OPINION.

this is why I became angry, and why I needed to vent my frustration to a forum that has general understanding of love and compassion for the same animals that i do.

i did not start this post so that everyone could hash out their own personal sore spots with who has a pyramided tort and who believes in a swamp theory and who doesn't think that 10 years worth of circumstantial evidence is enough to make a believer in a theory about how to keep your torts in the best possible way. i didn't start it so that people could come in and claim that "high humidity" is not the ONLY way to keep an animal healthy. i know the other ways to keep an animal healthy. the whole reason i felt anger in the first place did NOT have to do with this tortoise's diet, so why would i mention it? my problem was with the pyramided animal, which OBVIOUSLY needed some WATER.

this post was not posted to the debatable section. if you have a debate that you would like to persue in this regard, please create your own post in the proper section, without stealing mine. if you don't mind.

i was simply trying to vent, i hoped that that would be understood with my opening paragraph and my ending statement.

we have to soak our torts daily to give them enough humidity to keep their shells smooth.

How does soaking a tort give it "humidity"? All it does it get them wet and give them a chance to drink.

and i do so graciously apologize for mis-wording my post. i pour water on their substrate to give them enough humidity in their enclosure, and i soak them in the morning to give them a jump-start warm up and to allow them to soak in 100% humidity (water) for 15-20 minutes and to drink if necessary.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Rebekah:

Well, I didn't know about the humidity theory until last year. By then I already had 4 pineapples that are beyond making smooth, and yet they are still babies.

I didn't see the ad you're referring to, but if it was an adult or anything older than 3 or 4 years, then those people didn't know about humidity either.

You're just going to have to cut them a little slack. This is a really new concept.